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The All Dacs sound the same thread

El Buberino,

The Ahhhhhhhhhh-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-eeeeeeeeeeeee-eeeeeeeeeeee at 1:26 is awsum, man.

Joe
 
Joe,

The whole thing is a masterpiece, and he won a medal from Mother Russia for services to musics. On my Desert Island Discs list fo' sho'.
 
anyhow heres another one..

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#differences

"Response in the above set of curves is for the same small 2-way 4-ohm speaker. The microphone position is only a few inches from the system but that is not important for this example. Here, we are interested in response differences for different series resistance for the same microphone position and not for speaker response at different microphone positions.

The red (upper) curve is without any added series resistance. The green (middle) curve is with one ohm added in series with the speaker and the black (lower) curve is with 2 ohms in series. You can see there is an overall loss in output but it is not the same at all frequencies. For the green (middle) curve in the area of 125 and 2500Hz, where the impedance is high, there is only about 1/2dB of loss in output whereas at the area of lowest impedance, at 300 and 10 kHz, the loss is about 2dB. The larger 2 ohm resistance shows even greater changes.

The resistances used in this example are much larger than the recommended wire resistance of 0.2 ohms but they do show how impedance variations can influence response. Response changes this large can be easily heard in an A-B listening test."

Funny because I was told categorically in another thread that this does not happen and the resistance of a wire plus connection only alters volume and only in a linear fashion....
 
spxy said:
anyhow heres another one..

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#differences

"Response in the above set of curves is for the same small 2-way 4-ohm speaker. The microphone position is only a few inches from the system but that is not important for this example. Here, we are interested in response differences for different series resistance for the same microphone position and not for speaker response at different microphone positions.

The red (upper) curve is without any added series resistance. The green (middle) curve is with one ohm added in series with the speaker and the black (lower) curve is with 2 ohms in series. You can see there is an overall loss in output but it is not the same at all frequencies. For the green (middle) curve in the area of 125 and 2500Hz, where the impedance is high, there is only about 1/2dB of loss in output whereas at the area of lowest impedance, at 300 and 10 kHz, the loss is about 2dB. The larger 2 ohm resistance shows even greater changes.

The resistances used in this example are much larger than the recommended wire resistance of 0.2 ohms but they do show how impedance variations can influence response. Response changes this large can be easily heard in an A-B listening test."

Funny because I was told categorically in another thread that this does not happen and the resistance of a wire plus connection only alters volume and only in a linear fashion....
Click to expand...

You need to be careful giving such examples, as that one certainly illustrates the objectivist view that where cables sound different there will be readily identified and measurable reasons.

Of course changing series cable resistance alters the frequency response of the loudspeaker system. Simple Ohms Law though - no magic or even some of the semi-plausible explanations that are offered in support of differences that are supposedly audible. Quad among others were explaining this to users via their product manuals back in the 1950s so it isn't a new finding by any means.

If you want to change the response of your loudspeaker in this way, insert some cheap resistors in series with your preferred audiophile cable. It'll cost you around £2.
 
Mark EJ said:
Sage words. And speaking personally, the best I've ever heard from CDs has involved either a CDS (1) or a CD3 with a HiCap. I think there is probably some sense in JV's original contention that just providing the interface for a separate DAC can cause bigger problems than could be fixed even in a theoretically perfect conversion, although Naim have since conveniently forgotten that one.

Of course, there are now more digital sources than just CD and its blood relatives. Complicates things a bit.

I've just bought a DAC to allow me to feed telly sound into the audio system. The requirements are obviously not the same as with music, but it cost about £30 and seems to do a reasonable job. It's certainly not as good as taking a feed from the "audio out" phono plugs which tellies no longer have, though, even though it bypasses the telly preamp. Sometimes 'progress' really pisses me off.
Click to expand...

which tvs don't have an audio out?
 
I'm a little late joining this thread but just having played with a project dac box usb I can honestly say the not all dacs sound the same, the dac box is utterly useless!
 
Robert said:
You need to be careful giving such examples, as that one certainly illustrates the objectivist view that where cables sound different there will be readily identified and measurable reasons.

Of course changing series cable resistance alters the frequency response of the loudspeaker system. Simple Ohms Law though - no magic or even some of the semi-plausible explanations that are offered in support of differences that are supposedly audible. Quad among others were explaining this to users via their product manuals back in the 1950s so it isn't a new finding by any means.

If you want to change the response of your loudspeaker in this way, insert some cheap resistors in series with your preferred audiophile cable. It'll cost you around £2.
Click to expand...

I am an objectivist.

Just because i give some credit to what i've heard does not stop me from being rational about why i've heard it.

If there are differences they are measurable.
I'm not interested in audiophile cables...i'm just pointing out people have heard differences between cables, be that speaker interconnect or power and there are reasons why they have heard those differences.

It also stands to reason that some systems can be improved by paying attention to how these things work.

By the way its cheaper for me to buy a cable than to spend time to wire in resistors and besides that the idea is to lower resistance not increase it....

And time and time again many of the so called objectivists are referring to the ideal, not real world systems...
 
whatsnext said:
On the Hoffman thread that taught Steve Toy more than he has forgoten I noted this question:

Q: can mains cables benefit a turntables sound?
A: Consensus no.

A PFM member has had a Naim Powerline on Lingo and Armageddon making amazing improvements for his LP12. I don't want to id him.
The armageddon is just a big transformer, an electromechanical device with no electronics. Do dont need to say much else about the difference of views/exprience. Amusing though.
Click to expand...

I can safely predict Steve will see this as a massive personal attck but you posted the Hoffman link Steve.

Anybody (other than Steve) particularly those who belong to the Subjectivist Clan care to make comment. You may see it as an attack I cannot do much about that. Just seems daft to me.

Nailing my colours to a mast if anything I am a pragmatist and certainly unwilling to be fettered by the prescribed principles of either Subj or Objectivists. Objectivists tend to be consistent maybe Subjectivists see no value in that.

Would/should a mains cable affect sound of an LP12 with only an Armageddon power supply?
 
If he's had speed improvements then those are easy to see, shall i post him my test record and he can record the 3150hz track and prove the improvements. Curiously I've just doen the same my self, kettle lead to 12WAWG solid silver power chord- no difference to my Hercules.

Swapping output capacitors and diodes in the same Herc, a small difference.
 
Steven Toy said:
I don't use a ****ing turntable.
Click to expand...


Steve

No need to resort to such self expression. I did offer you a reply get out by "Anybody (other than Steve) particularly those who belong to the Subjectivist Clan care to make comment."

You don't have a Powerline (that I have seen you post about) but you have opinions about it.
 
sq225917 said:
If he's had speed improvements then those are easy to see, shall i post him my test record and he can record the 3150hz track and prove the improvements. Curiously I've just doen the same my self, kettle lead to 12WAWG solid silver power chord- no difference to my Hercules.

Swapping output capacitors and diodes in the same Herc, a small difference.
Click to expand...

Simon

The Armageddon is just a mechanical device, no electronics. A cable with insufficent amperage capacity might gain a benefit but only when starting up. Once the LP12 is running the power is light. It beggars belief to me what mechanism might bring an improved sound, note what improvement was un stated. If given the opportunity I am open to being amazed but that one stretches my credibility.

I don't want to involve or focus on the TT owner, I didn't when he posted so thanks for your offer but play it low key
 
I have heard a powerline being demonstrated. I have not heard the effect of changing the mains lead on a turntable psu.

You said:

Originally Posted by whatsnext On the Hoffman thread that taught Steve Toy more than he has forgoten I noted this question:

Q: can mains cables benefit a turntables sound?
A: Consensus no.
Click to expand...

So basically you aren't asking my opinion because you think you already know what it is.

This "consensus" of opinion you speak of, is this a consensus of people with or without subjective experience?
 
Steven Toy said:
I have heard a powerline being demonstrated. I have not heard the effect of changing the mains lead on a turntable psu.

You said:



1. So basically you aren't asking my opinion because you think you already know what it is.

2. This "consensus" of opinion you speak of, is this a consensus of people with or without subjective experience?
Click to expand...

1. Steve don't try to second guess that one you wont like the answer but no I haven't even thought what you may say - I hoped you would as requested/suggested keep out of this one

2. Interesting what you assume, your judgement is poor. The consensus was, wait for it - of that forum thread's replies
 
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