TECHNICS SL1200/1210. HYPE OR FACT?

[ThELiZ]

I love my Technics, and am hoping to leave the upgrades well alone now. Well, I am considering a Mike New bearing, but I'm not actually sure how bad the original one is. Mine was a new deck 4 years ago and never used by a DJ.

Anyone have any experience changing bearings? I'm really not convinced that it could make any difference to the sound.

My current deck consists of SL1210Mk2, Jelco 750D Tonearm, Timestep PSU, Isonoe feet, Funk Achromat and a Lyra Delos. With all of these 'upgrades' I can see why they might help achieve a better sound, but the bearing, I'm not so sure. Surely if anything was wrong with the stock bearing, it would be audible?

Interested in people's opinions on this.

 

[sonddek]

Has anyone tried Dv carts (10x or 20x) on the stock arm (with or without a Sumiko headhsell)?

No, but one afternoon I tried an XX-2/Uphorik on my Techie/EkosII, and the same on a WTA, versus a full Klimax Sondek (no Khan though). There was very little in it, but I felt the Techie held its own. It had the speed stability to match the WTA and very nearly as much detail as the Sondek. I felt the Sondek was the most detailed but least musical of the three decks. The WTA was very musical but very very slightly lacked detail. The Techie was about the best of both worlds: great detail and accurate pitch. No doubt Marc thingy would have found it "flat" and "boring".

 

[sonddek]

I love my Technics, and am hoping to leave the upgrades well alone now. Well, I am considering a Mike New bearing, but I'm not actually sure how bad the original one is. Mine was a new deck 4 years ago and never used by a DJ.

Anyone have any experience changing bearings? I'm really not convinced that it could make any difference to the sound.

My current deck consists of SL1210Mk2, Jelco 750D Tonearm, Timestep PSU, Isonoe feet, Funk Achromat and a Lyra Delos. With all of these 'upgrades' I can see why they might help achieve a better sound, but the bearing, I'm not so sure. Surely if anything was wrong with the stock bearing, it would be audible?

Interested in people's opinions on this.

I splashed out on a Mike New bearing, for the fun of it. It's a beast. To be honest it's quite difficult to assess the effect, but I would say it is pretty subtle. I haven't installed the baseplate though, so I may not be hearing it at its best. TBH, if you used the MN bearing, baseplate and platter, I suspect it's a fundamental improvement, but for the moment I would first like to source a better arm mounting plate, and the stock platter is just so pretty that I'm loath to go that far. I would say hold off on the bearing until you have a chance to properly assess it. If you're in the UK I could send you mine so that you have a chance to listen to one at home. It only takes a minute to swap bearings. Frankly it's a hellova deck with either.

 

[chris@panteg]

Mind you a certain character who cannot be named, but not unlike Voldemort, started bugging that chap about the Technics TTs. That would be enough to put anyone off for life

Yes I remember that , he went too far ! People should just find out for themselves though that's the thing , my advice is don't spend too much It takes very little to improve this deck really , to max it out does seem to cost but then ....

The advice given to me , it can be modded/improved but if you've got £1,000's to spend ? try and find an SP10 mk2 or mk3 or better still an LO7D .

 

[Groover]

Anyone have any experience changing bearings? I'm really not convinced that it could make any difference to the sound.
.

I found the MN bearing really let you hear just what the better arm and cartridge were actually doing, the stock bearing sort of glossed things over by comparison, well worth trying.

The advice given to me , it can be modded/improved but if you've got £1,000's to spend ? try and find an SP10 mk2 or mk3 or better still an LO7D .

...maybe but with either of those decks you're gonna need a few grand to spare when things start going wrong,

 

[chris@panteg]

Sorry but that last statement is nonsense , if it cost a few grand to fix/repair an LO7D or an SP10 ? I would just buy another , you can still pick up SP10's for £5-800 for the motor unit .

Minty ones are a bit more but as an example Vantage audio charged about £400 to service and repair an SP10 last year , shame they've gone to ground .

But if you're happy with your 1200 and I've no doubt it sounds excellent , then all is well

 

[ThELiZ]

I splashed out on a Mike New bearing, for the fun of it. It's a beast. To be honest it's quite difficult to assess the effect, but I would say it is pretty subtle. I haven't installed the baseplate though, so I may not be hearing it at its best. TBH, if you used the MN bearing, baseplate and platter, I suspect it's a fundamental improvement, but for the moment I would first like to source a better arm mounting plate, and the stock platter is just so pretty that I'm loath to go that far. I would say hold off on the bearing until you have a chance to properly assess it. If you're in the UK I could send you mine so that you have a chance to listen to one at home. It only takes a minute to swap bearings. Frankly it's a hellova deck with either.

Thanks very much, that is a really kind offer.

The MN bearing was the one I was interested in trying, but I think for the foreseeable future, especially seeing as you feel that the performance increase is subtle (it would have to be night and day for £450), I think I will stick with the deck I have got.

Just to add some more info to this thread, I tried the Rega RP6 and found that I enjoyed the Technics far more (not stock).

 

[John]

That is indeed interesting, and I'm actually quite glad you've said this as it backs up a certain amount of what I heard when I recently fitted a Jelco 750D to my old 1210. Sure it did a few of the hifi-ish things better, but it definitely wasn't a night & day improvement. Now there will be those folk who poo-poo this and say 'he must be deaf' but I'm only relating exactly what I heard. Put a few different cartridges into the Jelco, namely a DL103R, a 10X5, and Rega Carbon and whilst yes, they sounded very good in the Jelco, it wasn't the huge improvement I'd been led to expect. The standard arm was un-modified, although had been off to J7 for a full service (bearing clean/adjust etc).

In my experience, the most fundamental change to the Technics - for the better - is brought by sorting the power supply. In one swoop it rids the deck of its samey dynamics, helping it to portray musical subtleties properly and 'grow up' sonically.

Unless you're using a fairly demanding MC cartridge, I'd be tempted to stick with the stock arm. I had a 2M Black in a previous 1210 and it sounded fabulous.

Looking at how the 1200 is put together it appears that all the main bits, the arm, bearing, motor mount, power supply and transformer are all screwed to the same metal chassis. All the bits end up vibrating one another. The transformer being one of the culprits.

 

[Gromit]

Looking at how the 1200 is put together it appears that all the main bits, the arm, bearing, motor mount, power supply and transformer are all screwed to the same metal chassis. All the bits end up vibrating one another. The transformer being one of the culprits.

Indeed - I too have often wondered if the transformer's removal improving the sound means ridding the deck of both electrical and vibrational interference.

It's such a solidly rigid system as standard with no isolation built in.

 

[John]

Indeed - I too have often wondered if the transformer's removal improving the sound means ridding the deck of both electrical and vibrational interference.

It's such a solidly rigid system as standard with no isolation built in.

The transformer is also very close to the motor coils and despite a bit of shielding perhaps getting it out altogether is best in that regard as well.

 

[Alex S]

Kabusa, perhaps the most experienced (if not the best or most expensive, I don't know) said this: 'I would not remove the stock transformer. The extra weight does the table good.'

 

[John]

Kabusa, perhaps the most experienced (if not the best or most expensive, I don't know) said this: 'I would not remove the stock transformer. The extra weight does the table good.'

That's interesting, so KAB keep the stock transformer inside the deck for weight purposes when they install their own power supply despite the need to keep it inside the deck as it's no longer needed?

 

[Gromit]

That's interesting, so KAB keep the stock transformer inside the deck for weight purposes when they install their own power supply despite the need to keep it inside the deck as it's no longer needed?

If the transformer's weight is that beneficial I'd just be tempted to put a big lump of Plastiscene in its place.

Can see it now - different weights/densities of 'transformer replacement blobs' made from various types of material.

 

[John]

If the transformer's weight is that beneficial I'd just be tempted to put a big lump of Plastiscene in its place.

Can see it now - different weights/densities of 'transformer replacement blobs' made from various types of material.

I could see pages devoted to this topic on certain hi-fi fora and the effects of keeping the unused lump of ferrous metal inside the deck as well as certain individuals touting having the ideal recipe of mass inside their precious.

 

[Gromit]

I could see pages devoted to this topic on certain hi-fi fora and the effects of keeping the unused lump of ferrous metal inside the deck as well as certain individuals touting having the ideal recipe of mass inside their precious.

The mind boggles John.

 

[Stuart Mason]

Anyone have any experience changing bearings? I'm really not convinced that it could make any difference to the sound.

Yes. I found it lowered background noise allowing more of the signal to come through clearly. It is also a beautifully constructed thing - pity you can't see it once it has been installed.

Regards,

Stuart.

 

[Stuart Mason]

Actually, I may still have some before and after recordings of the bearing change. PM me if interested and I'll look them up.

 

[337alant]

No, who has? The next line is "how long did you listen to each?", then "what support", "what cables", "have you lived with both" and so it goes on down the obfuscation route. I've yet to see anyone compare 2 TTs under the conditions you describe. Ever.

One thing I do know is I lived with a Rega 2 for 6 or 7 years, with a variety of cartridges and the standrad of engineering was always poor. That wonky platter was still wonky. It only started to sound better than my CDP when I sold it and got an LP12. Better again with a Garrard. Did I compare these with the same cart, back to back, same time, level matched, all that? No. I know it's better though.

I have and still own a Rega P3, Technichs 1200 + 1210, Linn LP12 and a Garrard 401, the Garrard blows them all away IMO
Rega Vs 1200 one sounds romantic the other sounds accurate but neither do it for me.
Strangely I want to like the Tech 1200 they are well made turntables and I want something simple robust, reliable that has a dust cover so I will try some mods to the power supply first and maybe stick one of my rega arms on it RB 300 or RB 250?.
the other turntable I want to try is a Michell Orbe

Alan

 

[Alex S]

Yes, the 1200 somehow does everything right yet nothing... In stock form I'm bored after 10 mins without really knowing why. Which is not to say I won't have a go at it, just not for big money. I want to like it too. I put the Rega Carbon on the WT for dem purposes and listened to music all night... I think Richard/Gromit pretty much concluded the same but I'll spare myself the AoS roasting.

The main reason I'll do the kabusa psu is its cheap and easily reversible - infact, if you leave the transformer in place you can switch straight from the kabusa to to the stock psu. They must have some confidence in the mod if you can A/B it at the flick of a switch. Whatever the Mike New bearing or the Paul Hynes PSUs do, I'd rather spend that sort of money on a different deck. Equally, if I can't get something to sound good in the stock arm, bad luck, I'm not spending £500-£1000 for a different one.

 

[John]

Indeed - I too have often wondered if the transformer's removal improving the sound means ridding the deck of both electrical and vibrational interference.

It's such a solidly rigid system as standard with no isolation built in.

Have you considered doing the same to the PL71? It looks like the transformer in the PL71 is attached to a metal plate that sits just below the platter. It looks like it might be better isolated from the tonearm but it's hard to tell from an exploded diagram.

I got a good idea of how the 1200 is put together from a uTube video when someone completely strips down the deck to finish the cast metal top.