Your modded deck looks a beaut. have you been able to compare it back to back with the 1200G/GR at all ?
Technics 1200g - Any long term users?
- Thread starter Robby
- Start date
Your modded deck looks a beaut. have you been able to compare it back to back with the 1200G/GR at all ?
Marco
AoS Representative
Hi Simon,
Thanks - it's been a work in progress for the last 13 years, firstly to address its fundamental flaws (great piece of engineering that it is, particularly the motor unit), then simply fine-tune it to my tastes.
Unfortunately, I haven't yet had the pleasure of carrying out the above comparison, but would love to do so, simply to see how good the new one is and/or how well mine stacks up against it. The G does seem like an audiophile bargain (as does the GR). Mine has cost me rather more than £3k - more like double!
Therefore, if anyone with a G or GR would like to do a comparison, once lockdown starts to properly ease, they'd be more than welcome to visit, or me come to them, and we could do a proper write-up about it on here, and also on AoS (my place), which I'm sure would make for interesting and informative reading.
On that note, we have a full section dedicated to the Technics, discussion and modification of it thereof, which can be found here: https://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?46-The-Techiepedia
Marco.
Marco
AoS Representative
One thing that's interesting for me is that, from looking at the pics anyway, the G (and for that matter too, the GR) appear to have been fitted with what looks like little different from the stock support feet of the old decks [if I'm wrong though, I stand to be corrected], and which from experience I know limit the T/Ts sonic potential.
Therefore, G or GR users may wish to try either some Funk Firm 'Boings' or these, which I use: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32395696...d=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1 both of which were certainly a notable upgrade from the stock feet of the old decks, and which are direct screw-in replacements.
The other thing that's interesting is that one of the most fundamental improvements I made to my own T/T was installing a high-quality off-board linear PSU, a Paul Hynes SR7 (see here: https://www.paulhynesdesign.com/sr7), in conjunction with regulator modules (see here, and is exactly what my T/T looks like under the hood, with the Mike New high-precision bearing: https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/125/power-supply-modifications-technics-series) and which I notice is only tackled at the level of the SL-1000R, which costs £14k..
Having heard how significant the sonic improvement is from carrying out the above, and isolating the PSU [generating a magnetic field and source of noise] from the control circuitry, it may be worth investigating whether Gs or GRs could be fitted with this type of PSU arrangement, and therefore elevating the G (and to an extent GR) closer to the performance of the R, for not too much cost.
Someone with the relevant technical skills, however, would need to carry out some measurements to determine whether it was electrically compatible. Just a thought, folks!
Marco.
Therefore, G or GR users may wish to try either some Funk Firm 'Boings' or these, which I use: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/32395696...d=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1 both of which were certainly a notable upgrade from the stock feet of the old decks, and which are direct screw-in replacements.
The other thing that's interesting is that one of the most fundamental improvements I made to my own T/T was installing a high-quality off-board linear PSU, a Paul Hynes SR7 (see here: https://www.paulhynesdesign.com/sr7), in conjunction with regulator modules (see here, and is exactly what my T/T looks like under the hood, with the Mike New high-precision bearing: https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/125/power-supply-modifications-technics-series) and which I notice is only tackled at the level of the SL-1000R, which costs £14k..
Having heard how significant the sonic improvement is from carrying out the above, and isolating the PSU [generating a magnetic field and source of noise] from the control circuitry, it may be worth investigating whether Gs or GRs could be fitted with this type of PSU arrangement, and therefore elevating the G (and to an extent GR) closer to the performance of the R, for not too much cost.
Someone with the relevant technical skills, however, would need to carry out some measurements to determine whether it was electrically compatible. Just a thought, folks!
Marco.
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Marco
AoS Representative
Another possible area of improvement with the G or GR is the rubber mat, which although provides good damping properties is *definitely* not the most effective interface for the record.
Quite simply, if Technics have successfully addressed the rather 'ringy' and resonant nature of the old platter (which was the reason why others and me upgraded to properly engineered aftermarket varieties), with the construction of the new sub-platter, then a rubber mat shouldn't be needed to further deaden any resonances.
The fact is, the thick rubber mat provided will also 'deaden' the music!
Therefore, and I say this with a slight word of caution, unless Technics have 'voiced' the T/T (and drive system, in conjunction with the platter and sub-platter) to be used with the rubber mat provided, and therefore anything else will sound 'wrong' [and that may be the case], then there will almost certainly be sonic gains to be had by changing the rubber mat for something such as an Achromat, which will perform a far more effective role as an interface for the record, thus allowing musical information to be more faithfully retrieved from the grooves.
I suspect it's more likely that the rubber mat was used simply as it was the cheapest solution available and the stock item supplied with every D/D turntable Technics have produced - that and the fact they're not in the business of designing aftermarket mats, which is a job for someone else.
It would just be nice to see how much (if any) the performance of the R or GR could be improved with some relatively inexpensive tweaks. Next, we can start to explore the efficacy or otherwise of using record clamps or weights... But I'll leave it there for now!
Marco.
Quite simply, if Technics have successfully addressed the rather 'ringy' and resonant nature of the old platter (which was the reason why others and me upgraded to properly engineered aftermarket varieties), with the construction of the new sub-platter, then a rubber mat shouldn't be needed to further deaden any resonances.
The fact is, the thick rubber mat provided will also 'deaden' the music!
Therefore, and I say this with a slight word of caution, unless Technics have 'voiced' the T/T (and drive system, in conjunction with the platter and sub-platter) to be used with the rubber mat provided, and therefore anything else will sound 'wrong' [and that may be the case], then there will almost certainly be sonic gains to be had by changing the rubber mat for something such as an Achromat, which will perform a far more effective role as an interface for the record, thus allowing musical information to be more faithfully retrieved from the grooves.
I suspect it's more likely that the rubber mat was used simply as it was the cheapest solution available and the stock item supplied with every D/D turntable Technics have produced - that and the fact they're not in the business of designing aftermarket mats, which is a job for someone else.
It would just be nice to see how much (if any) the performance of the R or GR could be improved with some relatively inexpensive tweaks. Next, we can start to explore the efficacy or otherwise of using record clamps or weights... But I'll leave it there for now!
Marco.
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Marco
AoS Representative
Hi, no problem, but that was a rather expensive solution to the problem, when you could've simply added a second rubber mat, or perhaps a thinner version of such to the existing one - or even a spacer to the headshell?
Anyway, as long as it's all sounding good, there's no issue.
Marco.
Anyway, as long as it's all sounding good, there's no issue.
Marco.
Sonny Beauceron
pfm Member
I couldn't help but be struck that you could have been talking about your own 13 year project here.
Marco
AoS Representative
I think I see what you're getting at now, and yes there's no doubt I've spent a lot of money (around £6k) getting it to the point it's at. However, it does sound very good indeed, as I'm sure others who've heard it, both in my system, at shows and in other people's systems, would attest to.
Indeed, so much so that I'd not only expect it to compete favourably with the 1200G, but also the 1200R..
After all, I've already compared it directly (and favourably) with high-end D/D designs, such as the Brinkmann Oasis and Inspire Monarch, as well as highly-regarded vintage designs, such as the Trio L-07D and various SP10s, not to mention umpteen (highly fettled) idler decks, such as TD124s, Garrard 301 and 401, different Lencos, and a Goldring G99, plus more expensive belt-drives (especially ridiculously priced LP12s) than I care to remember..
Now, *if*, and at the moment, it's only an if, my T/T, sonically, was to be compared very favourably with a 1200R (and I welcome the opportunity to conduct such a comparison, if anyone here owns one and would kindly care to provide me with that opportunity), then essentially I've saved myself £8k!
In that context, therefore, it wouldn't have been such an expensive solution..
Marco.
Indeed, so much so that I'd not only expect it to compete favourably with the 1200G, but also the 1200R..
After all, I've already compared it directly (and favourably) with high-end D/D designs, such as the Brinkmann Oasis and Inspire Monarch, as well as highly-regarded vintage designs, such as the Trio L-07D and various SP10s, not to mention umpteen (highly fettled) idler decks, such as TD124s, Garrard 301 and 401, different Lencos, and a Goldring G99, plus more expensive belt-drives (especially ridiculously priced LP12s) than I care to remember..
Now, *if*, and at the moment, it's only an if, my T/T, sonically, was to be compared very favourably with a 1200R (and I welcome the opportunity to conduct such a comparison, if anyone here owns one and would kindly care to provide me with that opportunity), then essentially I've saved myself £8k!
In that context, therefore, it wouldn't have been such an expensive solution..
Marco.
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Sonny Beauceron
pfm Member
I think I see what you're getting at now, and yes there's no doubt I've spent a lot of money (around £6k) getting it to the point it's at. However, it does sound very good indeed, as I'm sure others who've heard it, both in my system, at shows and in other people's systems, would attest to.
Indeed, so much so that I'd not only expect it to compete favourably with the 1200G, but also the 1200R..
After all, I've already compared it directly (and favourably) with high-end D/D designs, such as the Brinkmann Oasis and Inspire Monarch, as well as highly-regarded vintage designs, such as the Trio L-07D and various SP10s, not to mention umpteen (highly fettled) idler decks, such as TD124s, Garrard 301 and 401, different Lencos, and a Goldring G99, plus more expensive belt-drives (especially ridiculously priced LP12s) than I care to remember..
Now, *if*, and at the moment, it's only an if, my T/T, sonically, was to be compared very favourably with a 1200R (and I welcome the opportunity to conduct such a comparison, if anyone here owns one and would kindly care to provide me with that opportunity), then essentially I've saved myself £8k!
In that context, therefore, it wouldn't have been such an expensive solution..
Marco.
That is true. And in all circumstances you love it and have had great fun over 13 years doing what you've done to it and it doubtless sounds great. All of which really is great - in the same spirit as your comment to the guy who bought an expensive mat that made no difference. All's well that ends happily.
The other possibility, though, is that your essentially home-assembled TT is not as good as a 1200G (which you haven't heard), for twice the money not including all your work on it. Sceptics, while admiring your enthusiasm and not doubting the knowledge you've gathered on your odyssey, will think it more likely that Technics can freshly design, tool and hand-build a better DD turntable for £3k from scratch than you can cobble together from random components sourced from the crazily-priced world of hifi for £6k.
I don't mean that in a mean way at all. I accept it's possible that yours is better; I just don't think it's likely. And though as I say I genuinely don't want to be unkind about what you've made (and I'm sure it's a great TT, not doubting that) it's hard to take the conversation much further without saying so.
Marco
AoS Representative
Hi Sonny,
Sorry for the late reply - as I said, just been busy elsewhere!
Absolutely, and if I were you I'd think the same, especially when you don't know me from Adam, or anything about the choices I've made, in respect of how my turntable has been modified. Or just as importantly, the calibre of the products installed, which have facilitated that, or that of the talented and consummate professionals who designed and built them.
Firstly though, I'd say that whilst your argument makes perfect sense, and keeping the discussion for the moment about direct-drives, the exact same would surely apply to Brinkmann and Inspire? The Brinkmann Oasis, for example, in case you didn't know, is a £9k turntable. So surely, to use your argument, Brinkmann can, and I quote: 'freshly design, tool and hand-build a better DD turntable for [£9k] from scratch than I can cobble together from random components..'?
Yet when I did the comparison with its owner, that's not what happened, which at the time he fully acknowledged. What actually happened was my 'Trigger's Broom', lol, ably held its own and competed very well with its more expensive counterpart, and in some areas bettered it. Ditto with the Inspire Monarch, at £7k, at a different demo.
So who's to say the same won't happen with a 1200G?
Plus looking at it another way, again using your argument, you'd think that even with my own T/T, when it was in stock form, and I bought it new as an SL-1210MK5G, Technics should've been able to 'freshly design, tool and hand-build a better DD turntable from scratch than I can cobble together from random components' - all I could possibly do was bodge it, right?
Again, not so. With the modifications I carried out to the turntable, I succeeded in successfully addressing its shortcomings, whilst building upon and maximising its strengths, and which trust me would be readily heard in any comparison with such. Do you see where I'm coming from?
It's a bit like comparing, say, a professionally race-tuned Ford Focus, where all the work's been carried out by NASCAR-trained technicians (independent specialists in their field), using bespoke parts from specialist manufacturers, against a stock one straight out of the factory. Which do you think would offer the superior performance?
Well... My turntable has been similarly 'race-tuned', using components from manufacturers who are specialists in their field (namely, mostly, Mike New and Paul Hynes, who designed and built the bearing/platter and PSU arrangements respectively), and crucially knew the Technics inside out and how to address and fundamentally overcome its limitations in stock form. All I did was buy their products and have them fitted by another professional - then sat back and enjoyed the results!
However, I knew what I was doing, as I'd researched both their products and them thoroughly, and so all along was confident about the outcome - and that's why I'm equally as confident that my 'Trigger's Broom' would compete very favourably against a 1200G or possibly even an R, because I know *exactly* what's gone into making it what it is
I get that, so why don't we find out?
Do you have an R, or even a GR? If so, let's arrange a bake off, at either your place or mine, and see what happens. I'm not expecting there necessarily to be an outright winner, as I know how capable the R is, so it could simply be a case of equally good but different 'flavours', thus come down to individual preference.
However, I think such a comparison would be useful and interesting reading for all Technics enthusiasts out there, and for me, exactly what forums such as this (and AoS) are all about!
Sorry for the late reply - as I said, just been busy elsewhere!
Absolutely, and if I were you I'd think the same, especially when you don't know me from Adam, or anything about the choices I've made, in respect of how my turntable has been modified. Or just as importantly, the calibre of the products installed, which have facilitated that, or that of the talented and consummate professionals who designed and built them.
Firstly though, I'd say that whilst your argument makes perfect sense, and keeping the discussion for the moment about direct-drives, the exact same would surely apply to Brinkmann and Inspire? The Brinkmann Oasis, for example, in case you didn't know, is a £9k turntable. So surely, to use your argument, Brinkmann can, and I quote: 'freshly design, tool and hand-build a better DD turntable for [£9k] from scratch than I can cobble together from random components..'?
Yet when I did the comparison with its owner, that's not what happened, which at the time he fully acknowledged. What actually happened was my 'Trigger's Broom', lol, ably held its own and competed very well with its more expensive counterpart, and in some areas bettered it. Ditto with the Inspire Monarch, at £7k, at a different demo.
So who's to say the same won't happen with a 1200G?
Plus looking at it another way, again using your argument, you'd think that even with my own T/T, when it was in stock form, and I bought it new as an SL-1210MK5G, Technics should've been able to 'freshly design, tool and hand-build a better DD turntable from scratch than I can cobble together from random components' - all I could possibly do was bodge it, right?
Again, not so. With the modifications I carried out to the turntable, I succeeded in successfully addressing its shortcomings, whilst building upon and maximising its strengths, and which trust me would be readily heard in any comparison with such. Do you see where I'm coming from?
It's a bit like comparing, say, a professionally race-tuned Ford Focus, where all the work's been carried out by NASCAR-trained technicians (independent specialists in their field), using bespoke parts from specialist manufacturers, against a stock one straight out of the factory. Which do you think would offer the superior performance?
Well... My turntable has been similarly 'race-tuned', using components from manufacturers who are specialists in their field (namely, mostly, Mike New and Paul Hynes, who designed and built the bearing/platter and PSU arrangements respectively), and crucially knew the Technics inside out and how to address and fundamentally overcome its limitations in stock form. All I did was buy their products and have them fitted by another professional - then sat back and enjoyed the results!
However, I knew what I was doing, as I'd researched both their products and them thoroughly, and so all along was confident about the outcome - and that's why I'm equally as confident that my 'Trigger's Broom' would compete very favourably against a 1200G or possibly even an R, because I know *exactly* what's gone into making it what it is
I get that, so why don't we find out?
Do you have an R, or even a GR? If so, let's arrange a bake off, at either your place or mine, and see what happens. I'm not expecting there necessarily to be an outright winner, as I know how capable the R is, so it could simply be a case of equally good but different 'flavours', thus come down to individual preference.
However, I think such a comparison would be useful and interesting reading for all Technics enthusiasts out there, and for me, exactly what forums such as this (and AoS) are all about!
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Robert
Tapehead
I've had a GR for a while now and it gives superb performance.
Prefer my Gyro but I concede that's a taste/preference thing and not a comment on absolute performance.
The Sonic character differences get a lot smaller if you place a thin felt may on top of the Technica rubber one supplied. Better still, put an Achromat on the Technics - opens thing up.
No complaint at all about the build. Even the strobe dots are fine
I collect old carts so having the ability to play them by simply swapping the shell is great. Don't think the TechnoArm on the Gyro would appreciate constant cart swapping, not with those hair-fine wires at least.
Prefer my Gyro but I concede that's a taste/preference thing and not a comment on absolute performance.
The Sonic character differences get a lot smaller if you place a thin felt may on top of the Technica rubber one supplied. Better still, put an Achromat on the Technics - opens thing up.
No complaint at all about the build. Even the strobe dots are fine
I collect old carts so having the ability to play them by simply swapping the shell is great. Don't think the TechnoArm on the Gyro would appreciate constant cart swapping, not with those hair-fine wires at least.
John
Rack’em Up!
Tony L was a short-term user.
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/classic-deck-battle.204140/page-4
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/classic-deck-battle.204140/page-4
I’ve got a gyrodec but I’m really fancying changing to a GR. Any advice?I've had a GR for a while now and it gives superb performance.
Prefer my Gyro but I concede that's a taste/preference thing and not a comment on absolute performance.
The Sonic character differences get a lot smaller if you place a thin felt may on top of the Technica rubber one supplied. Better still, put an Achromat on the Technics - opens thing up.
No complaint at all about the build. Even the strobe dots are fine
I collect old carts so having the ability to play them by simply swapping the shell is great. Don't think the TechnoArm on the Gyro would appreciate constant cart swapping, not with those hair-fine wires at least.
fegs
pfm Member
Buy one, spend less than an hour unpacking and setting up, enjoy
eisenach
pfm Member
For what it's worth, I've recently gone from a Gyrodec to a G. I don't have any desire to swap back. The G is the best player this house has seen, by quite some margin.
Boris the madcap
pfm Member
When the scenario have suspended floor,?
Is necesary put foot or isolation platform?
Is necesary put foot or isolation platform?
Konteebos
Surfing on the lake of fire
Not in my experience - I have a suspended floor and the 1200G deals with it better than any previous turntable I have owned.