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Tannoy - original crossovers vs new. What's better ?

cooky1257 said:
I tried on numerous occasions pre Music Group; "We don't do it" was a flat response(!) from them-and that's from when you could get helpful Craig or even Alex Garner on the phone and I had a 'Pro' account with them..
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I'm not familiar with Craig or Alex, my point of contacts were Eugene Magee (now sadly deceased) and Ian Campbell. When Eugene realigned my HF unit I'm pretty sure he got Dr Paul Mills to sweep test them (I still have the CLIO print outs!). He even took it upon himself to apply a solder iron to a gouge in the otherwise mint Chatsworth's wood veneer to raise the grain, lightly sanded it and gave it a quick coat of spray lacquer, at no added cost. Old skool service with a smile, as they say...
 
What I don't understand is why most of the providers of new crossovers don't publish measurements showing the differences between new and old (which is what one of you lovely people did here).

While it may not tell you what something sounds like entirely, it is at the very least a very good starting point and some concrete details on what you're getting.

perhaps I missed it but I would think a new 3rd party crossover would want to retain the filtering system (roll-off and energy) or at least something akin to allow the same basic user adjustability to be retained. I read the ebay ad for the crossovers which started the thread and it seemed like those models and some kind of swap in-and-out allowance on them, but how that was implemented and what the measured differences between the combinations weren't shown or listed.

Some people firmly believe that the use of autoformers in the originals played a big part in how they sounded overall, I also don't understand why some newer 3rd party x-overs don't implement the use of autoformers but still try to improve on the sound quality and measured performance of the originals.

Personally I'd want a crossover design that was developed by someone doing a combination of listening and measuring, and trying to uphold what makes the originals so addictive while trying to improve them in whatever way possible.

Or, you could just go buy a pair of fyne audios.
 
cooky1257 said:
Like anything that's old/vintage(me), driver specs change, suspensions stiffen, resonant frequencies can shift, tweeter diaphragms fatigue, magnets can lose some charge causing a droop in the low mids, previous work may not align components correctly, refoams/recones are too often done incorrectly and then you have the crossover components going out of spec(caps).
But have no fear there's some blokes making new crossovers that are night and day improvements on the original designs/voicing etc. After market crossovers aren't 'bespoke' unless the drivers each are measured and age related loses are compensated for or repaired.
Its a jungle out there.
It's amazing Tannoys sound as good as they do. IMHO restore 'em don't change 'em.
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Thanks Cooky,

Appreciate your feedback. However, I'm slightly confused with the last line in your post "restore 'em don't change 'em". I'm assuming you are referring to the drivers and not the crossovers ? Because you do say that there are some great new crossovers out there. But first step is to check if the drivers themselves are in good order. So am I right in assuming that the drivers should be repaired if required. But crossovers can be changed (sometimes for the better) if required ?

Regards,

Denzil
 
Denzil Sequeira said:
Thanks Cooky,

Appreciate your feedback. However, I'm slightly confused with the last line in your post "restore 'em don't change 'em". I'm assuming you are referring to the drivers and not the crossovers ? Because you do say that there are some great new crossovers out there. But first step is to check if the drivers themselves are in good order. So am I right in assuming that the drivers should be repaired if required. But crossovers can be changed (sometimes for the better) if required ?

Regards,

Denzil
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Restore em applies to drivers and crossovers. Not sure when I said there are some great crossovers out there but if I did I'd still recommend staying original if you have some but deffo seek out the best solution if you find yourself with just the drivers-you can pay through the nose for some that satisfies audiophile nervosa with a bit of salesmanship and boutique parts.
The Tannoy engineers knew what they were doing and I do not subscribe to the idea that a man in a shed knows better.
I've heard and really liked an 'aftermarket crossover' that Fraser of this parish uses with his HPD 315s, was based on the original circuit(incl autoformer) with some component recommendations (Clarity cap MR's) and set for bi-wire, came directly from Paul Mills of Tannoy.
 
cooky1257 said:
Restore em applies to drivers and crossovers. Not sure when I said there are some great crossovers out there but if I did I'd still recommend staying original if you have some but deffo seek out the best solution if you find yourself with just the drivers-you can pay through the nose for some that satisfies audiophile nervosa with a bit of salesmanship and boutique parts.
The Tannoy engineers knew what they were doing and I do not subscribe to the idea that a man in a shed knows better.
I've heard and really liked an 'aftermarket crossover' that Fraser of this parish uses with his HPD 315s, was based on the original circuit(incl autoformer) with some component recommendations (Clarity cap MR's) and set for bi-wire, came directly from Paul Mills of Tannoy.
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Ah. Got it. Thanks for the clarification !

Denzil
 
cooky1257 said:
The F1-12 is £28K, it uses a £350 Beyma CP 755 Nd compression driver...
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Oh, you mean, the "tweeter"? and 1 of them?

Let's do some maths - 700 quid tweeters (parts), est. 1500 quid woofers (parts), crossover? Cabs? finishing, etc.? Manufacturer cost, what....probably 3500-4k in parts?

Yup, sounds about standard manufacturer-to-retail pricing.

They also have models much, much less btw.
 
yuckyamson said:
Oh, you mean, the "tweeter"? and 1 of them?

Let's do some maths - 700 quid tweeters (parts), est. 1500 quid woofers (parts), crossover? Cabs? finishing, etc.? Manufacturer cost, what....probably 3500-4k in parts?

Yup, sounds about standard manufacturer-to-retail pricing.

They also have models much, much less btw.
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I mentioned it because I was rather surprised how dear they were. Those 12" fine bass drivers will be more like £300 a pop.
For example in a lower priced JBL array 1400 the 435al compression driver is more around £3000 pr plus there's a super tweeter £1000 pro and 14" LE14 bass drivers, plus import duty.... that Beyma comp is pretty average in the scheme of available drivers... but I do get how these 'high' prices are arrived at- doesn't stop my jaw dropping though;-)

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cooky, I hear you, but we don't really know what went in to engineering and parts in their flagship.

I will say that I wish fyne would put out some more robust, lower cost options. Right now their stuff is all either mercury series + stuff or revolution series + stuff (comparisons obviously), and then they have the more definition + series stuff. I'm quite certain they do certain technical moves here which they either weren't allowed to do when at tannoy or for whatever reason didn't happen at tannoy.

The F1 series is kind of a prestige series + although the aesthetics are arguably terrible.

I wish they would do some more grassroots, wide-baffle type stuff, at lower price points. Make an affordable 10, 12, and 15", like a legacy series, but perhaps even more price competitive. I think they would rock.
 
Speaking of affordable Tannoys, I was a mouse-click away from ordering a pair of new Tannoy Gold 8's to use as drum monitors, but I knew in the back of my mind that I would probably end up rescuing them to use in a hifi somewhere in the house because abusing a Tannoy as a drum monitor would be sacrilege! I'm still tempted to buy them just to see how good a £420GBP pair of dual-concentrics can be...
 
yuckyamson said:
cooky, I hear you, but we don't really know what went in to engineering and parts in their flagship.

I will say that I wish fyne would put out some more robust, lower cost options. Right now their stuff is all either mercury series + stuff or revolution series + stuff (comparisons obviously), and then they have the more definition + series stuff. I'm quite certain they do certain technical moves here which they either weren't allowed to do when at tannoy or for whatever reason didn't happen at tannoy.

The F1 series is kind of a prestige series + although the aesthetics are arguably terrible.

I wish they would do some more grassroots, wide-baffle type stuff, at lower price points. Make an affordable 10, 12, and 15", like a legacy series, but perhaps even more price competitive. I think they would rock.
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Don't get me wrong, I wasn't dissing the Fyne range at all-I was just taken aback at the price of the 12" F1(visuals not to my taste).
The use of a 3" diaphragm compression driver is something Tannoy has been really slow in moving to, the DC in the Kingdom uses one but it hasn't trickled down to the rest.
The Fyne Isoflare in the lower ranges looks like more than enough of a change/iteration from to the tulip waveguide as to not infringe any patents and it looks far more complicated-less elegant but could well show some performance advantages. It looks rather like a KEF/Tannoy hybrid-the driver surround for instance.
I'd considered bolting one of my 3" JBL 2435Be onto a 15" 3833/36 -something I'll get round to eventually..
Nice to here Fyne say the F1-12 is our largest driver 'so far'.....They have the 'Tannoy' expertise and I wish them well.
 
I just want cheaper dual concentrics.

On the subject of Beyma, they make 2 models - a 12" and a 15" - which are more co-axial but rather LOOK dual concentric. I wonder how far off they would be.

Anyway it's a nice thought to source a dual concentric from some OEM supplier and build thyself a large box. But I wouldn't know where to start looking, really.
 
Thing is by the time you've paid for/assembled the comps, the bass, the crossover you are firmly in used Tannoy DC price territory. You can go really cheap using Eminence drivers....£200 a pop incl crossovers.
 
IF I were a fan of Tannoy's... and an owner... I'd be tempted by the idea of active crossovers. The DC driver should mean no time alignment needed and so an analogue crossover could be relatively simple and of short signal path... a valve one perfectly doable even.
 
cooky1257 said:
Thing is by the time you've paid for/assembled the comps, the bass, the crossover you are firmly in used Tannoy DC price territory. You can go really cheap using Eminence drivers....£200 a pop incl crossovers.
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Eminence makes a dual concentric? Or you're saying you'd have to Jimmy one.
 
Thinking about a digital crossover. There was an experience of using Xilica HD8080. The bass was Thor's Hammer, not bass. The amplifier would be professional, Lab Gruppen / I don’t remember the model. I didn't have a microphone and didn't take measurements. Therefore, I simply divided the frequencies, and did not activate the digital notch filter in any way.So it was impossible to listen. Some compositions that did not contain anything bright at a frequency of 1.5 kHz played well. Although it was elementary. Now there is a measuring microphone UMIK1, and an understanding of how and what to do. Buying Xilica again is a little expensive these days. I think to take on a sample, something from the products of the company Minidsp.
 
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