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Tannoy - original crossovers vs new. What's better ?

Denzil Sequeira

Denzil Sequeira

pfm Member
Hi all,

This is my second thread/post here, I'm new.

I've built new cabinets for Tannoy MG 15's, which I inherited and although I have the original crossovers, I opted for new ones built in the UK. This is what I bought and use :

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=152776541889

But there's a whole range of new crossovers out there, from around £ 100 to around £ 800 a pair.

I'm not saying anything at the moment about my experience with the new crossovers but will reveal my experience once I have sufficient opinions from both camps - for and against new crossovers.

Looking forward to hearing from you !

Denzil
 
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Whatever you do keep the originals as a long-term reference point. It is no huge secret that I don’t like any third-party attempt I’ve heard, and that includes some very expensive boutique jobs, and my suspicion is people fall down a rabbit hole trying to correct what the originals do wrong whilst losing track of how right they are as a whole. All the third party attempts I’ve heard clean that slight bit of ‘Tannoy mush’ in the mid, they are more ‘fi-fi’, but just lose the magic, the flow, the ‘rightness’, that ‘thing‘ that attracted me to vintage Tannoys in the first place.

Anyway, whatever you do, whatever you spend exploring other options, after a month or so with the new ones just chuck the originals back in as a benchmark. I’ve done this several times now (different 3rd party XOs each time) and my pair are now totally stock and staying that way. I actually ended up falling out with one of the self-professed gurus along the way as what he told me he was selling and what I was hearing were such different things!

PS It is very well worth cleaning the switches on the originals very thoroughly with Deoxit D5 and if necessary recapping them like for like (though I haven’t my current pair as they seem fine). You will definitely hear dirty switches.
 
I've compared one set of aftermarket crossovers against the originals, but with 10" HPD. The ones I bought were from the amocom guy on eBay which I chose as he doesn't claim to improve on the originals, but makes new ones that aim to perform exactly as the originals do (and he's a really nice and helpful guy). I put them in and I thought they sounded absolutely fine. I then sent the originals off to be tested and it turns out that they were still 'in spec' so I put those back in. Very little difference between the new and originals, which I thought was generally a good thing.
If I was in the same position again I'd start by getting the originals checked out and serviced if required, and not worry about aftermarket crossovers unless the originals were missing or broken beyond repair.
 
Denzil Sequeira said:
Hi all,

This is my second thread/post here, I'm new.

I've built new cabinets for Tannoy MG 15's, which I inherited and although I have the original crossovers, I opted for new ones built in the UK. This is what I bought and use :

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=152776541889

But there's a whole range of new crossovers out there, from around £ 100 to around £ 800 a pair.

I'm not saying anything at the moment about my experience with the new crossovers but will reveal my experience once I have sufficient opinions from both camps - for and against new crossovers.

Looking forward to hearing from you !

Denzil
Click to expand...
I'm curious to try aftermarket crossovers with my Tannoys but have been put off doing so after a disappointing experience with the above A-Series crossovers that I tried a few years ago. They did something very strange to the midrange, making vocals sound both 'cupped' and 'shouty' at the same time. Needless to say they didn't stay in my speakers for long! I contacted the seller to share my thoughts and his rather defensive reply was along the lines of, "you're the first to criticise them, everyone else loves them!". It wasn't until years later that I measured them and saw what the issue was:

48658895752_429d883d93_o.jpg


I don't know if the current generation of A-Series crossovers have been redesigned since the version I had, but if they haven't then I'd be very surprised if I'm the only one who noticed the issue with the midrange. Fortunately, these crossovers weren't eye-wateringly expensive so selling them on at a 50% loss wasn't too galling, but it made me very reluctant to try more expensive ones from other sellers because they generally don't allow you to "try before you buy". Laying out £800 is a big risk IMO without knowing what they sound like, even if they have impeccable pedigree and are widely praised.
 
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I thought there would have been much more banter on this thread but surprised to find very little feedback.

Thanks Tony, Ratty and ToTo !

So here's my experience. With the original crossovers, it was almost unbearable to hear certain kinds of music on my MGs. (I'm using a Primaluna ProLogue One. And use various sources (phono Rega Planar 3, Emotiva ERC-2 CD player and streaming with a Fitzwilliam Majority). The overall sound quality was good with the original crossovers but the higher mids were one fuzzy mess. Especially with complex music. Simple guitars, trios etc were okay. When I switched to the the crossovers (which I have referred to in this thread), everything changed. The overall sound quality became much better and to my ears the original Tannoy sound was still retained. But the most notable area was in the upper mids and highs. There was a dramatic improvement. There something I miss though, the roll-off control.

Thanks Tony, for advising me to hang on to my original crossovers. They visually look good. However I've not opened them to see what's going on inside, which I will do in a couple of days. I don't have any measuring equipment so can't really do much myself. However I can change components once the lockdown is over (and if I still have an income post the Covid 19 - aftermath). Your suggestion to put the originals back, to compare them with the new crossovers can't happen with the way they sound now. I assume they need to be refurbished. There are several websites with advice on refurbishment but I'm not sure who to follow. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Ratty for your findings. Looks like I would have been happier with the crossovers you have since it appears that you have energy AND roll-off settings ?

Toto, very interesting to see your graph. Funnily, the areas where you found a problem (1 - 2 KHz), that's where I actually found an improvement. I'm not sure when you got your crossovers and if there have been any improvements since then (do yours look visually the same as compared to the photos of the ones in my link ? Are the components the same ?)

Thanks and regards,

Denzil
 
Denzil Sequeira said:
There are several websites with advice on refurbishment but I'm not sure who to follow. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

My advice is to do as little as possible to them. Anything you do beyond basic cleaning will subtract value (stock they are worth £200-400). Do not be tempted to remove/bypass the level and roll-off switches as their presence is factored in the voicing and doing so tips the speakers to a rather bright and spot-lit perspective even if you reduce the ‘level’ to -1 when doing so (certainly don’t hard-wire them ‘level’ as that is far too bright without the controls and cabling in circuit). Beyond that it is hard to recommend what to do beyond very seriously cleaning the switches which I definitely recommend. Caig Deoxit D5 is the best tool here IME. Not cheap, but it lasts for ages and is good for all manner of contact cleaning. I have no answer to whether they need recapping or not as there were actually several variants some using film caps, some electrolytics, mostly a mixture of both. I’ve never felt the need to do my current pair as they sound matched left to right and for my taste beat the third-party crossovers I’ve tried.

I do know what you mean about the ‘mid fuzziness’, that is always the area that is improved with modern crossovers, but the ones I’ve tried lose something far more important when it comes to coherence and musical communication for me. My current pair seem very good, the mid is fine to my ears, a modern crossover just sounds more ‘spotlit’, which isn’t what I’m after.

I suspect there are a lot of different Tannoy users. I’m definitely in the camp that uses them because I really like their sound, and yes, I accept they have one. If I wanted to use another speaker with a cleaner mid I’d just buy one - my Tannoys are worth a lot of money so really cost is no object, I could easily swap them for Quads, Martin Logans, Maggies, JBLs, Klipsch or pretty much any other large speaker. I use them because I like them as-is, so maybe I’m not the one to ask here. The mods I have tried make them sound less like Tannoys, and that’s not the direction I want. Also bare in mind that I run two systems, as do many vintage Tannoy owners (especially in the far east), so I have a near-field system upstairs (Stereo 20/JR149s) with an extraordinarily clear midband.
 
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Denzil Sequeira said:
Toto, very interesting to see your graph. Funnily, the areas where you found a problem (1 - 2 KHz), that's where I actually found an improvement. I'm not sure when you got your crossovers and if there have been any improvements since then (do yours look visually the same as compared to the photos of the ones in my link ? Are the components the same ?)
Click to expand...

This is the version I had, I bought them from mainlytannoy in June 2013 at a cost of around £250:

49877932637_ff80f960a7_o.jpg
 
Tony L said:
My advice is to do as little as possible to them. Anything you do beyond basic cleaning will subtract value (stock they are worth £200-400). Do not be tempted to remove/bypass the level and roll-off switches as their presence is factored in the voicing and doing so tips the speakers to a rather bright and spot-lit perspective even if you reduce the ‘level’ to -1 when doing so (certainly don’t hard-wire them ‘level’ as that is far too bright without the controls and cabling in circuit). Beyond that it is hard to recommend what to do beyond very seriously cleaning the switches which I definitely recommend. Caig Deoxit D5 is the best tool here IME. Not cheap, but it lasts for ages and is good for all manner of contact cleaning. I have no answer to whether they need recapping or not as there were actually several variants some using film caps, some electrolytics, mostly a mixture of both. I’ve never felt the need to do my current pair as they sound matched left to right and for my taste beat the third-party crossovers I’ve tried.

I do know what you mean about the ‘mid fuzziness’, that is always the area that is improved with modern crossovers, but the ones I’ve tried lose something far more important when it comes to coherence and musical communication for me. My current pair seem very good, the mid is fine to my ears, a modern crossover just sounds more ‘spotlit’, which isn’t what I’m after.

I suspect there are a lot of different Tannoy users. I’m definitely in the camp that uses them because I really like their sound, and yes, I accept they have one. If I wanted to use another speaker with a cleaner mid I’d just buy one - my Tannoys are worth a lot of money so really cost is no object, I could easily swap them for Quads, Martin Logans, Maggies, JBLs, Klipsch or pretty much any other large speaker. I use them because I like them as-is, so maybe I’m not the one to ask here. The mods I have tried make them sound less like Tannoys, and that’s not the direction I want. Also bare in mind that I run two systems, as do many vintage Tannoy owners (especially in the far east), so I have a near-field system upstairs (Stereo 20/JR149s) with an extraordinarily clear midband.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tony !

I understand what you are saying. But will only know what my personal preference is once I have cleaned the switches on my original crossovers and make a comparison. And thanks for the Craig Deoxit D5 link. Amazon is not delivering to our area due to the lockdown in other Amazon hubs. But will try and lay my hands on a can at the earliest. Will keep you posted.

Regards,

Denzil
 
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ToTo Man said:
This is the version I had, I bought them from mainlytannoy in June 2013 at a cost of around £250:

49877932637_ff80f960a7_o.jpg
Click to expand...

Thank you ToTo !

These crossovers look very different from the ones which I have. So I assume there are changes in the circuit. Mine also have settings for the energy going to the tweeter, which seem to be absent on the ones in your photo. I'm not sure if they have addressed the issue of the 1 -2 KHz range you experienced. So I guess that will remain a mystery. I can't post photos yet because I'm a "new member" who hasn't past security yet. But I will post photos of my cabinets and the building process once PFM security has cleared me

Thanks again !

Denzil
 
Like anything that's old/vintage(me), driver specs change, suspensions stiffen, resonant frequencies can shift, tweeter diaphragms fatigue, magnets can lose some charge causing a droop in the low mids, previous work may not align components correctly, refoams/recones are too often done incorrectly and then you have the crossover components going out of spec(caps).
But have no fear there's some blokes making new crossovers that are night and day improvements on the original designs/voicing etc. After market crossovers aren't 'bespoke' unless the drivers each are measured and age related loses are compensated for or repaired.
Its a jungle out there.
It's amazing Tannoys sound as good as they do. IMHO restore 'em don't change 'em.
 
Tony L said:
That’s a service I would pay money for, I’d love to get my magnets re-zapped and matched.

PS I’ve got a full recone kit sitting in a box!
Click to expand...

I'm disappointed Tannoy don't offer this mag recharge facility, that said, as the LF/HF share the same magnet it should be possible to at least get the HF gap flux measured, if it's on spec then reasonable to assume the LF is ok. They are blessed, by accident or design, with a low power handling that acts as a fuse to prevent the mag getting a zap from high current in the voicecoil but there's always the possibility of mechanical shock damage over the years.
I suspect the effort you put in to getting your HF dias spot on is partly responsible for the sweet sounds you are getting.
I'd be soooo tempted to install those kits if the choice was mine, they'd be like new and you'd have some genuine vintage spare cones(assuming they came out in one piece).
Either way they are now rare as hens teeth, keep rotating the boxes to avoid floppy spider.
 
cooky1257 said:
I'd be soooo tempted to install those kits if the choice was mine, they'd be like new and you'd have some genuine vintage spare cones(assuming they came out in one piece).
Either way they are now rare as hens teeth, keep rotating the boxes to avoid floppy spider.
Click to expand...

I may well commission your services sometime after this Covid 19 thing is over!
 
I had a pair of Berkeley 11's, initially I couldn't get on with them due to a definite hardness in the midrange. I read a few articles online regarding the crossovers- specifically the fact they used the same crossover as the earlier HPD's. I tried Mastrad, it did solve the problem in the midrange, so the modified circuit for the ceramic/tulip drivers worked well. In fact the midrange is very good on those 3828's. Using the same crossovers clearly was a cost cutting measure. However, I always felt the 15's needed a bigger cabinet and wound up with 15" Golds in York corners. The drivers came with Mastrads too, but I wasn't happy for exactly the same reason - a hardness around the upper midrange. Obviously the aftermarket crossovers don't use the autoformer which aren't exactly easy to get a hold of. He also uses same design for HPD/Gold - the originals have one resistor value change.

Long story short, I went with Troels Graveson designs after sourcing some autoformers and hard wired them. A definite improvement, though there is still what sounds like a peak around female vocals and I'm wondering if there is a driver issue though they have been Lockwood re-coned. The bass, lower midrange and top end are very good, it's just a narrow band. The Troels design allows for changes to HF level and roll off, but it's not that area.

My ARC blew its OPT so I have no music at present. It's now an expensive paperweight, not viable to repair. Might try an EL84 design though my favourite is 2a3. Another story though.
 
cooky1257 said:
I'm disappointed Tannoy don't offer this mag recharge facility
Click to expand...
The used to, but probably never advertised the service officially. I saw a magnet being re-gaussed during my unofficial tour of the Coatbridge factory, during which time I also got a HF diaphragm realigned in my HPD Chatsworths. This was in 2012 IIRC, so before the takeover. Many of the incredibly helpful employees were made redundant after that, and that's when things started to go downhill IMO.
 
Hooch500 said:
I had a pair of Berkeley 11's, initially I couldn't get on with them due to a definite hardness in the midrange. I read a few articles online regarding the crossovers- specifically the fact they used the same crossover as the earlier HPD's. I tried Mastrad, it did solve the problem in the midrange, so the modified circuit for the ceramic/tulip drivers worked well. In fact the midrange is very good on those 3828's. Using the same crossovers clearly was a cost cutting measure. However, I always felt the 15's needed a bigger cabinet and wound up with 15" Golds in York corners. The drivers came with Mastrads too, but I wasn't happy for exactly the same reason - a hardness around the upper midrange. Obviously the aftermarket crossovers don't use the autoformer which aren't exactly easy to get a hold of. He also uses same design for HPD/Gold - the originals have one resistor value change.

Long story short, I went with Troels Graveson designs after sourcing some autoformers and hard wired them. A definite improvement, though there is still what sounds like a peak around female vocals and I'm wondering if there is a driver issue though they have been Lockwood re-coned. The bass, lower midrange and top end are very good, it's just a narrow band. The Troels design allows for changes to HF level and roll off, but it's not that area.

My ARC blew its OPT so I have no music at present. It's now an expensive paperweight, not viable to repair. Might try an EL84 design though my favourite is 2a3. Another story though.
Click to expand...

Seems there's a bit of confusion, the K series 3828 isn't a tulip driver, its a ceramic magnet pepperpot. I've never got on with Berkeley's either too congested in the bass..
They have the rapid flare/short throat HF horn and are every bit as good as HPD's IMO-Lower distortion too. Don't forget the LGM etc, very highly regarded monitors, use this horn/ceramic mag.
Worth remembering about the auto formers is they are clamped into the crossovers and once you have em freestanding you must make sure the laminations are tightly held together or the spec go off.
 
ToTo Man said:
The used to, but probably never advertised the service officially. I saw a magnet being re-gaussed during my unofficial tour of the Coatbridge factory, during which time I also got a HF diaphragm realigned in my HPD Chatsworths. This was in 2012 IIRC, so before the takeover. Many of the incredibly helpful employees were made redundant after that, and that's when things started to go downhill IMO.
Click to expand...
I tried on numerous occasions pre Music Group; "We don't do it" was a flat response(!) from them-and that's from when you could get helpful Craig or even Alex Garner on the phone and I had a 'Pro' account with them..
 
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