tannoy legacy series

[tuga]

@tuga,

This was the response I got from the Autograph Mini at my listening seat in April 2020. The graph shows the left and right speakers individually. That was when the speakers were sitting on top of my Edinburgh cabinets, which put the Mini's 4-inch driver about 130cm above the floor, hence the lack of bass. (Anechoically the Minis are only supposed to be -6dB down at 68Hz). They were toed-in to cross in front of the listening seat, I estimate around 13-degrees off-axis but can't remember exactly.

This was the response after I applied EQ to soften the high frequencies. I also applied a small reduction around 500Hz to reduce a little bit of subjective midrange bloom. The graph shows the averaged response of the left and right speakers before and after EQ.

Now for the measurements you requested, hot off the press today! Nearfield from 1 metre, changing the horizontal toe-in by 5-degree increments:

Measurements with front grille off.

Measurements with front grille off LAYERED.

Measurements with front grille on.

Measurements with front grille on LAYERED.

As you can see, the mid frequencies remain exceptionally smooth when measured off-axis. The flattest HF response appears to be achieved with the grille on and an off-axis toe-in of 20-degrees.

Thanks!
I guess you can almost have them shooting staight (grilles off) if you don't have the possibility to EQ.

 

[ToTo Man]

Thanks!
I guess you can almost have them shooting staight (grilles off) if you don't have the possibility to EQ.

You mean shooting them straight at the wall behind the listening seat? Yes, I used them like this in the past and it worked very well, as long as the distance between the speakers is no greater than the distance to the listening position. For wider arrangements I prefer to toe-in in front of the listening seat for more 'centre fill'.

Do you know roughly how many degrees off-axis it is when the speakers are shooting straight ahead in an equilateral triangle listening arrangement? Is it around 15-degrees?

EDIT - I've added 35-degree and 40-degree measurements to the graphs in post #260 for completeness. (I couldn't manage a 45-degree measurement as the top plate of the stand wasn't big enough to support the speaker).

 

[tuga]

You mean shooting them straight at the wall behind the listening seat? Yes, I used them like this in the past and it worked very well, as long as the distance between the speakers is no greater than the distance to the listening position. For wider arrangements I prefer to toe-in in front of the listening seat for more 'centre fill'.

Do you know roughly how many degrees off-axis it is when the speakers are shooting straight ahead in an equilateral triangle listening arrangement? Is it around 15-degrees?

EDIT - I've added 35-degree and 40-degree measurements to the graphs in post #260 for completeness. (I couldn't manage a 45-degree measurement as the top plate of the stand wasn't big enough to support the speaker).

I also prefer to have the speakers firing at the listener for sharper imaging.

In an equilateral triangle setup a 30º toe-in will point the speaker straight at the listening spot (the speaker axis is making a 30º angle with the side wall and a 60º angle with the front wall):

 

[tonerei]

im not convinced spikes vs feet will make much difference. I have many of the same feelings about my eatons and they are spiked on dedicated 50cm high atacama stands. Into solid wooden floor with no carpet, in a fairly reflective and live room.

with all those differences in play and the signature generally the same, I’d suggest that this is simply part of the design and sonic signature of this range and can’t be “tweaked out”.

I tried some EQ in roon and that definitely helped matters as well. I’d suggest if you feel
A need to tweak these to try and be happier, that maybe it’s time for different speakers.

I’ve gotten used to them and enjoy what they do, having come from much brighter sounding speakers, they took some time to acclimatise to!

Maybe try your Eatons on the floor with nothing under them and see what they sound like. That will tell you if the stands are doing anything.
Raising up the speaker in my case is just to get the tweeter closer to ear level. The Eatons are doing that with stands.
Nothing fancy just decent castors and bamboo board. Correct positioning 'tweaking' the speaker position and the addition of a granite board to the top of each speaker has improved things for me. Awaiting end of lockdowns to hear what friends think about them. Really happy with the detail across the range of frequencies and also the tone. They are not warm and lush imho but detailed full with no harshness ( of course vocals or tracks that have spikey elements still are noticeable but overall the sound is really impressive to me). Will try and do some measurements when I put my mind to it and post them here.

 

[ToTo Man]

Thanks to tuga for asking me to measure my Autograph Minis as it's given me the encouragement I needed to rotate them back into my system for a cheeky listen!

I forgot how sublime these little fellas are on acoustic music, especially vocals and piano. There is a beautiful resonance to the sound that is almost haunting. Brushwork is also rendered superbly, - I'm uncovering reverb tails in ride cymbal hits that I hadn't noticed before (I guess that's a positive argument for a slightly elevated top octave response! ).

Their Achilles heel is still very much the bottom end. Coming from a full-range speaker like my Ditton 66 or my big Tannoys, the Mini's bass is virtually non-existent! I currently have them set up on 60cm tall stands in a 2m equilateral triangle approximately 65cm from the front wall. I'm not sure what Tannoy's recommended distance to the front wall is but I do know from previous experience that putting them too close to the wall causes the rear port to smear the sound.

If the Mini had a low end that had comparable tightness, solidity and extension to the likes of the JR149 I honestly think it would be a giant killer...

Anyway I'll stop discussing these little mini monitors now before I get my knuckles wrapped as they technically belong to the Prestige range, not the Legacy!

EDIT - I just tried moving the speakers closer to the front wall and it has negligible effect on the response below 80Hz, all it does is boost the 80Hz-140Hz region. Moving the listening position backwards, closer to the rear wall, harnesses a bit more of my 43Hz room mode, which helps add back a little bit of weight, but the 50Hz-80Hz region is still around -8dB lower than what it should be for a balanced frequency response for full-range music.

 

[tuga]

Thanks to tuga for asking me to measure my Autograph Minis as it's given me the encouragement I needed to rotate them back into my system for a cheeky listen!

I forgot how sublime these little fellas are on acoustic music, especially vocals and piano. There is a beautiful resonance to the sound that is almost haunting. Brushwork is also rendered superbly, - I'm uncovering reverb tails in ride cymbal hits that I hadn't noticed before (I guess that's a positive argument for a slightly elevated top octave response! ).

Their Achilles heel is still very much the bottom end. Coming from a full-range speaker like my Ditton 66 or my big Tannoys, the Mini's bass is virtually non-existent! I currently have them set up on 60cm tall stands in a 2m equilateral triangle approximately 65cm from the front wall. I'm not sure what Tannoy's recommend distance to the front wall is but I do know from previous experience that putting them too close to the wall causes the rear port to smear the sound.

If the Mini had a low end that had comparable tightness, solidity and extension to the likes of the JR149 I honestly think it would be a giant killer...

Anyway I'll stop discussing these little mini monitors now before I get my knuckles wrapped as they technically belong to the Prestige range, not the Legacy!

Makes me wonder what that small coax would be able to achieve in a mid-sized 3-way standmount.

 

[tonerei]

WHat would you say they'd be like with Jazz? My Audio note Js (through a Soro amp) still grate on high wind notes.

I have Cheviots I think you are looking at the Eatons? Nevertheless with the Cheviots jazz like any well recorded music is excellent. If you read back through the thread I found issues during breaking in. I struggled to get them positioned correctly in the room. Now they after a month they are sublime with all types of music but from the off they were really good with jazz and classical music. From all I have read the earlier Cheviot, Eaton ranges suffered from the brightness you speak of. This model is really just excellent. Take the nice descriptors from @ToTo Man post above and add natural substantial bass with a lovely tone and it gives you a picture of what I feel I am getting from them. Horns aka Miles Davis, The Ray Brown Trio double bass, piano, Bill Evans piano, Keith Jarrett, Brubeck , Peterson etc are best ever sound for me in my room. The 63's were more airy but don't have the depth and tone of the Tannoys. Can't go wrong with them for that sort of music imho. Of course your room and kit and ears will determine if you are as smitten as I am. I took a punt on these and think I have luckily struck gold.

 

[cooky1257]

2017, York Legacy,170L,triple ported, 3833/36 driver(same as the Legacy Arden in a bling free frame),
DMT mk2 crossover (same as Arden circuit but with higher spec components and minus mid adjustment);

2003, 215 DMT clones 3833/3834 drivers;

1998, Arundel Legacy, 180L single port, 3833/36, DMT mk2 crossover:

23 years, I hadn't appreciated just how long I'd been using these drivers in one form or another.
The quality and potential was always there( GRF tw)pity it took Tannoy so long to realise/take the leap, I just hope they stay in production.

 

[fraserking]

The evening I spent with those York Legacy still lingers , I thought they were stunning. Better than my memory of a B&W 801 nautilus session at Graham’s Hifi back in the late 90s which also left quite an impression.

 

[cooky1257]

The evening I spent with those York Legacy still lingers , I thought they were stunning. Better than my memory of a B&W 801 nautilus session at Graham’s Hifi back in the late 90s which also left quite an impression.

I remember your comment, which had me chuckling for days; "God is in the room" ;-)

 

[John]

Nice that Tannoy is making more affordable DC speakers than their prestige line.

Frank, what are the dimensions of those Legacy York cabinets? Is that what you’re running now?

 

[cooky1257]

Nice that Tannoy is making more affordable DC speakers than their prestige line.

Frank, what are the dimensions of those Legacy York cabinets? Is that what you’re running now?

Long gone John. 115x60x45 from memory. More like 165L actually.
I'm running Tannoy 12" 3128's in Balmoral style 120L cabs, I have some 3833/36's in storage and a couple of large JBL's on the go too.

 

[shrink]

Nice that Tannoy is making more affordable DC speakers than their prestige line.

Frank, what are the dimensions of those Legacy York cabinets? Is that what you’re running now?

not sure £5700 standmounts rank as “affordable”

Tannoys prices have gone mad lately. I used to own turnberrys about ten years ago and they were much cheaper than eatons are now

 

[John]

not sure £5700 standmounts rank as “affordable”

Tannoys prices have gone mad lately. I used to own turnberrys about ten years ago and they were much cheaper than eatons are now

Maybe we will see lower prices and more affordable models once they move production overseas.

 

[tonerei]

not sure £5700 standmounts rank as “affordable”

Tannoys prices have gone mad lately. I used to own turnberrys about ten years ago and they were much cheaper than eatons are now

Treat them as RRP targets.

 

[shrink]

Treat them as RRP targets.

I did, and I bought a pair

 

[tonerei]

I did, and I bought a pair

All the UK speaker manufacturers are on the price increase game. I think it is a ruse maybe to try and deal with Brexit. There is no logic to lots of the RRP prices for any of them. Look at Spendor Classic 100's. Wonder does anybody pay the list price in the UK?

 

[cooky1257]

An interesting and informative paper on placement and the virtues of toe-in for directional loudspeakers.

https://faculty.tru.ca/rtaylor/publications/reflectgeometry.pdf

 

[John]

An interesting and informative paper on placement and the virtues of toe-in for directional loudspeakers.

https://faculty.tru.ca/rtaylor/publications/reflectgeometry.pdf

Interesting, I did some measurements and with my speakers setup 7.5 feet apart teeter to tweeter I have met all the required distances from front, rear and side walls to keep the reflection times greater than 6ms. I played around with 36, 30 and 25 degree toe in and found 30 to be the best, (axis crossing 1 foot in front of ears) for best timbre and soundstage.

 

[fraserking]

That’s the same as me - 31 years and it’s still the same set up . Ive had 3 different 12” drivers in that time and crossing a foot or so in front of me has always given the most lifelike 3D image and satisfying soundstage.