paulfromcamden
Baffled
This was my thought also. Unless you're asking because you need to downsize I wouldn't be in a hurry to offload your records and CDs wholesale.
Switching from hard media to streaming
- Thread starter ex brickie
- Start date
This was my thought also. Unless you're asking because you need to downsize I wouldn't be in a hurry to offload your records and CDs wholesale.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
My experience has been, and remains, that streaming struggles to approach the quality of good vinyl or CD. Mostly, it lacks that indefinable ‘something’ that draws you into the music.
But one thing that does seem to make a big difference is optical coupling. It’s unfashionable to use it, but Toslink seems to be preferable, in my limited experience, to USB.
On a budget, the Escape M1 is extraordinary, and I’d say it beats a lot of far more expensive options. Not a bad place to start at all, but do use the optical connection to your DAC.
But one thing that does seem to make a big difference is optical coupling. It’s unfashionable to use it, but Toslink seems to be preferable, in my limited experience, to USB.
On a budget, the Escape M1 is extraordinary, and I’d say it beats a lot of far more expensive options. Not a bad place to start at all, but do use the optical connection to your DAC.
Maxbertola
pfm Member
I agree. But an Innuos Zen mini costs less than a Mac or a good PC with an optical reader.. It is definitely not specialist ripper crap but a very sensible, bespoke solution at a reasonable price. If you really love HD-based music replay.
Maxbertola
pfm Member
Yes, that's true.
I honestly don't understand that.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I’m sorry about that, but not sure I can explain it any differently that might help because I suspect that, actually, you understand what I said, but disagree with it. Our experiences may differ as regards streaming. I’m fine with that and have no need to change your mind.
John
Rack’em Up!
I don’t find anything sad about streaming. I find myself listening more to music than I normally would just because of the convenience. Starting up some music from my iPad or iPhone without having to move or touch a hardware device is significant to me.
You sure? A MacMini starts at £649, maybe add in a £100 for an external 1TB SSD and £50 for a cd reader and you’re still nowhere near the £1200 of an Innuos. Plus you are not locked in. You can try HQPlayer, you can use Apple Music, or Amazon HD or the new Presto classical service, or Idagio, or YouTube, or GarageBand, or whatever comes out next week.
tuga
Legal Alien
Plus the Mac mini is more powerful, allowing one to use more demanding filter and noise-shaping settings, upconverting to higher sample-rates and performing EQ.
eisenach
pfm Member
I bought a melco n1a at Christmas. It has USB out, so could run into your Rega CD player. I'm using an ewa USB cable.
If you're not in a hurry, I could bring it over to play one day. You're not a million miles from Herefordshire.
PM me if interested, though I'm in France for the next couple of weeks. There's over a TB of music on it, of all sorts, so I'm sure we could find something you'd like.
If you're not in a hurry, I could bring it over to play one day. You're not a million miles from Herefordshire.
PM me if interested, though I'm in France for the next couple of weeks. There's over a TB of music on it, of all sorts, so I'm sure we could find something you'd like.
geetee1972
pfm Member
Ripping a bit perfect copy of the CD is just the start of the process - I ripped mine using DB PowerAmp onto an SSD drive via my Macbook Pro. I've not used any other decide to do the ripping but friends with very revealling systems have and tell me the rip process is entirely neutral, i.e. the machine and software used make no difference assuming you're making bit perfect copies.
But playback, i.e. 'streaming' is different. And streaming is not homogenous; it covers both locally stored and remotely stored media, the playback of which is different, with a very clear benefit being to storing locally, i.e. buying and downloading a copy of the media for playback.
But playback, i.e. 'streaming' is different. And streaming is not homogenous; it covers both locally stored and remotely stored media, the playback of which is different, with a very clear benefit being to storing locally, i.e. buying and downloading a copy of the media for playback.
AKG
BOOMERSAURUS
I have the REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/ DAC and its stablemate REGA OSIRIS integrated amp, so I know the sonic signature and high level audio performance strata that you play in and want to continue with .
my pathway: MOON 280d and MiND 2 app controller (by SIMAUDIO)
I just upgraded to this unit from my BRYSTON BDP1-USB streamer/ network player & BRYSTON BDA-2 DAC stablemates, that were damn good in their own right.
The MOON grabbed me enough as a top tier better performer without shelling out stupid money to pull the trigger.
The MiND 2 app smokes the BRYSTON interface …. It was a big reason for the upgrade pathway
- my upgrade requirements:
- the interface app had to excel AND
- audio performance level would not be compromised and hopefully improved ..,,
- without overpaying for it and staying within my $CAD 5000 budget. (it’s maybe cheaper here in Canada cuz it’s another hi-end CAD manufacturer)
Note: all met
Highly recommended.
Features
https://simaudio.com/en/product/280d-streaming-dac/
MOON Warranty
For original new unit buyers who register within 30 days of purchase , the warranty is bumped up for free to 10 years
MOON Upgrade Path
If you upgrade within one year (1) of purchase on a new unit from your authorized dealer. MOON will give you 100% of your original purchase price as long as it is a brand new unit of higher value
If you upgrade within two years (2) of purchase on a new unit from your authorized dealer, MOON will give you 75% of your original purchase price as long as it is a brand new unit of higher value
Sample Reviews herein ( Google the rest )
https://darko.audio/2021/07/refined-precision-moon-by-simaudios-280d-streaming-dac/
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/simaudio-moon-280d-streaming-dac-review
https://hifiandmusicsource.com/2021/08/moon-280d-streaming-dac/
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/moon-announces-upgraded-and-updated-280d-streaming-dac/
my pathway: MOON 280d and MiND 2 app controller (by SIMAUDIO)
I just upgraded to this unit from my BRYSTON BDP1-USB streamer/ network player & BRYSTON BDA-2 DAC stablemates, that were damn good in their own right.
The MOON grabbed me enough as a top tier better performer without shelling out stupid money to pull the trigger.
The MiND 2 app smokes the BRYSTON interface …. It was a big reason for the upgrade pathway
- my upgrade requirements:
- the interface app had to excel AND
- audio performance level would not be compromised and hopefully improved ..,,
- without overpaying for it and staying within my $CAD 5000 budget. (it’s maybe cheaper here in Canada cuz it’s another hi-end CAD manufacturer)
Note: all met
Highly recommended.
Features
https://simaudio.com/en/product/280d-streaming-dac/
MOON Warranty
For original new unit buyers who register within 30 days of purchase , the warranty is bumped up for free to 10 years
MOON Upgrade Path
If you upgrade within one year (1) of purchase on a new unit from your authorized dealer. MOON will give you 100% of your original purchase price as long as it is a brand new unit of higher value
If you upgrade within two years (2) of purchase on a new unit from your authorized dealer, MOON will give you 75% of your original purchase price as long as it is a brand new unit of higher value
Sample Reviews herein ( Google the rest )
https://darko.audio/2021/07/refined-precision-moon-by-simaudios-280d-streaming-dac/
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/simaudio-moon-280d-streaming-dac-review
https://hifiandmusicsource.com/2021/08/moon-280d-streaming-dac/
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/moon-announces-upgraded-and-updated-280d-streaming-dac/
Birdseed007
Audio scribe
I'm surprised that there are so many on here recommending laptops/DAC's and budget streaming solutions for a guy who is thinking of ditching a top flight turntable and CD combination.
I started exploring streaming on the cheap with a Squeezebox touch and did add a separate fairly cheap DAC as an experiment. After a few years of using that I finally went out and purchased a secondhand Naim NDX - the uplift in usability, sound quality and enjoyment was significant. The Naim app is excellent and provides a much nicer user interface, the dedicated streamer means no faffing about booting laptops and the fact the NDX has an excellent built in DAC is an advantage to me. Despite all that Tidal simply isn't as good as CD or vinyl usually although locally ripped CD files are often (not always) better than either vinyl or my Naim CD player.
Will I ditch vinyl or CD though? No, certainly not. There's a ritual pleasure and unique sound to vinyl that simply cannot be replicated in the digital domain in my view. As a result unless you have pressing storage constraints I really wouldn't dispose of my vinyl just yet! Don't underestimate the work involved in ripping a sizeable CD collection either - it's a ball ache!!
What you could do is pick up a cheap but excellent streamer like the Cambridge CXN or a secondhand Naim/Auralic streamer to see if you like it and to run the different formats in parallel for the time being. Then if you really do want to go for only streaming I would choose a top flight streamer/DAC from the likes of Auralic/Naim or Linn...
Birdseed
I started exploring streaming on the cheap with a Squeezebox touch and did add a separate fairly cheap DAC as an experiment. After a few years of using that I finally went out and purchased a secondhand Naim NDX - the uplift in usability, sound quality and enjoyment was significant. The Naim app is excellent and provides a much nicer user interface, the dedicated streamer means no faffing about booting laptops and the fact the NDX has an excellent built in DAC is an advantage to me. Despite all that Tidal simply isn't as good as CD or vinyl usually although locally ripped CD files are often (not always) better than either vinyl or my Naim CD player.
Will I ditch vinyl or CD though? No, certainly not. There's a ritual pleasure and unique sound to vinyl that simply cannot be replicated in the digital domain in my view. As a result unless you have pressing storage constraints I really wouldn't dispose of my vinyl just yet! Don't underestimate the work involved in ripping a sizeable CD collection either - it's a ball ache!!
What you could do is pick up a cheap but excellent streamer like the Cambridge CXN or a secondhand Naim/Auralic streamer to see if you like it and to run the different formats in parallel for the time being. Then if you really do want to go for only streaming I would choose a top flight streamer/DAC from the likes of Auralic/Naim or Linn...
Birdseed
Why are you surprised? Pretty much all vinyl released in the last two or three decades will have originated from a digital master. The losses involved in converting that master to analogue, ploughing a groove into a lacquer, making a negative of that, plating it, using that to stamp out approximations to the original in vinyl of unknown quality then trying to get a needle to follow the resulting groove, which it never can, are huge. The cheapest streamer can hold a perfect copy of the original master and transmit it perfectly an infinite number of times. As I said in a previous post, digital is a different paradigm to analogue, and the values that apply to an analogue system do not apply to a digital one. With analogue there are losses at every stage. With digital there are no losses until you do the conversion. So, going back to the digital master being used to cut an analogue acetate, as long as your DAC is at least as good as the one used to cut the vinyl, you should get a far better result with digital than you can with vinyl.
geetee1972
pfm Member
The cheapest streamer may well be able to hold a bit perfect copy but it CANNOT transmit it perfectly for playback. It's in the retrieval and transmission to the DAC that errors creep in via noise and jitter and it's why the device doing this makes such a difference to the quality of playback.
NickofWimbledon
pfm Member
There are lots of threads that touch on this. Try searching on 'analogue to digital' perhaps.
You may also find this relevant: -
I have an LP12 with Keel, Radikal, Ekos, Lyra Kleos, Stiletto/ Skorpion and Naim Superline - it's the best LP12 I have heard, though I might well accept a no-cost swap for the top Vertere with all the supporting bits or £25K+ of Brinkmann if anyone offered.
I got an NDX2 streamer and had hoped I'd be able to persuade myself to give up vinyl.
We did lots of blind testing (i.e. me standing in front of preamp to disguise things) with multiple listeners - all at my house, using Naim 52/ SC/300DR and 250 into B&W 804 D3s or Shaninian Compasses.
On some albums, my 2-box Naim CDS2 beat the LP12 (and not just because some of my vinyl is tatty). That included much of the classical tried, but that comparison highlights the apples versus pears problem because I do not have a single example of the same recording or the same conductor/ orchestra on both formats. Also the CDS2 is the best CD player I have heard that costs less than a good new car.
On many more albums, the LP12 won - more pace, more stereo separation and space, more realistic female vocals and drum subtleties, more realistic sound from flute or violin or harmonica, and so on. Most non-classical where the LP12 did not win were tatty old vinyl or 'digitally remastered' modern replacements for same, or more recent recordings (though even then there were some on which the LP12 won convincingly - Back to Black and Wild Wood were strong examples of vinyl winning).
Streaming to the NDX2 from Tidal or Qobuz only beat CDs when the CD was known to be not-great and we found a better streaming version from the many on offer. However, the difference was rarely huge.
Adding the XPSDR power supply to the streamer changed things (well, it is Naim after all). Now the streamer was a bit ahead pretty often, but again that came down to which version of which album we were hearing. Not all my CDs turned out to the best version we could get (e.g. Kind of of Blue, and DG classical over about a decade)
We tried ripping CDs with a Naim Core and replaying via the NDX2. Without the XPSDR, the ripped version never matched just playing the CD on the old CDS2, though the gap was small enough that I might not ever notice without extensive AB testing. With the NDX2 and XPSDR, the rips compared so well with CDS2 that not one listener could consistently tell which they were hearing or express a preference that turned out to be consistent between rips from Core/ NDX2/ XPSDR or playback of the same CD from CDS2.
I had ripped several CDs on my laptop to play on iPhone/ headphones outside or in the car. We tried those rips against those from the Core. After all, several people had pointed out here and on the Naim site that there could be no difference. Well, there was.
Multiple listeners found the Core rips better, and no-one (not even me) failed to hear a difference. We also tried sticking a USB in the front of the NDX2 - it worked fine, but no better than a wire to transfer music.
Finally, we tried playing entirely over the wi-fi versus running a cable from ethernet 'switch' to NDX2. The latter was clearly better.
While many here will 'explain' why streaming should beat CD or digital should beat vinyl or that all streaming sources are equally good, I suggest listening for yourself. If you decide that those views were right, you'll save yourself a lot of money.
You may also find this relevant: -
I have an LP12 with Keel, Radikal, Ekos, Lyra Kleos, Stiletto/ Skorpion and Naim Superline - it's the best LP12 I have heard, though I might well accept a no-cost swap for the top Vertere with all the supporting bits or £25K+ of Brinkmann if anyone offered.
I got an NDX2 streamer and had hoped I'd be able to persuade myself to give up vinyl.
We did lots of blind testing (i.e. me standing in front of preamp to disguise things) with multiple listeners - all at my house, using Naim 52/ SC/300DR and 250 into B&W 804 D3s or Shaninian Compasses.
On some albums, my 2-box Naim CDS2 beat the LP12 (and not just because some of my vinyl is tatty). That included much of the classical tried, but that comparison highlights the apples versus pears problem because I do not have a single example of the same recording or the same conductor/ orchestra on both formats. Also the CDS2 is the best CD player I have heard that costs less than a good new car.
On many more albums, the LP12 won - more pace, more stereo separation and space, more realistic female vocals and drum subtleties, more realistic sound from flute or violin or harmonica, and so on. Most non-classical where the LP12 did not win were tatty old vinyl or 'digitally remastered' modern replacements for same, or more recent recordings (though even then there were some on which the LP12 won convincingly - Back to Black and Wild Wood were strong examples of vinyl winning).
Streaming to the NDX2 from Tidal or Qobuz only beat CDs when the CD was known to be not-great and we found a better streaming version from the many on offer. However, the difference was rarely huge.
Adding the XPSDR power supply to the streamer changed things (well, it is Naim after all). Now the streamer was a bit ahead pretty often, but again that came down to which version of which album we were hearing. Not all my CDs turned out to the best version we could get (e.g. Kind of of Blue, and DG classical over about a decade)
We tried ripping CDs with a Naim Core and replaying via the NDX2. Without the XPSDR, the ripped version never matched just playing the CD on the old CDS2, though the gap was small enough that I might not ever notice without extensive AB testing. With the NDX2 and XPSDR, the rips compared so well with CDS2 that not one listener could consistently tell which they were hearing or express a preference that turned out to be consistent between rips from Core/ NDX2/ XPSDR or playback of the same CD from CDS2.
I had ripped several CDs on my laptop to play on iPhone/ headphones outside or in the car. We tried those rips against those from the Core. After all, several people had pointed out here and on the Naim site that there could be no difference. Well, there was.
Multiple listeners found the Core rips better, and no-one (not even me) failed to hear a difference. We also tried sticking a USB in the front of the NDX2 - it worked fine, but no better than a wire to transfer music.
Finally, we tried playing entirely over the wi-fi versus running a cable from ethernet 'switch' to NDX2. The latter was clearly better.
While many here will 'explain' why streaming should beat CD or digital should beat vinyl or that all streaming sources are equally good, I suggest listening for yourself. If you decide that those views were right, you'll save yourself a lot of money.
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1. I don’t believe any errors creep in between a streamer and a DAC. Several DACs allow you to run a bit perfect test; when I had one I could prove that what was sent from my hard drive was received. The bit error rate at the physical level for USB is 1 in 10^12. Nearly never. And that’s before error correction.
2. The DAC used in cutting an acetate from a digital master will also suffer from jitter and noise, all you need at home is a DAC at least as good and you will get analogue at least as good as what could have been fed to the cutting lathe. You choice is
digital master -> D to A conversion -> your preamp/hifi
digital master -> D to A conversion -> cutting head -> acetate -> plating -> stamper -> pressing -> cartridge -> your preamp/hifi
Unless you think that disc cutting somehow improves a signal, I just can’t see how the analogue chain can be better. It is just a source of noise and distortion.
Alex S
carbon based lifeform
The debate is a good one and for each to decide. The reason I advised something cheap/free is so the OP could get a feel for streaming and whether they liked it, as opposed to blowing £4K+ to find out. My own view is the dac is more important than the streamer and he already has a very good one.
