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Sugden Connoisseur - lost classic?

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I have owned 2. A BD1 kit that I built myself and one of my very first turntables.
A shop-bought BD2 with I think an SAU? arm.
Both trounced by a Pioneer PL12D (which was no world beater itself)
I think that makes me qualified to say SHINY TURD!
 
Barrymidd your opinions are entirely valid , it is however invalid to attempt to justify one personal opinion with another. That is, in my opinion of course.

Anyway, back to normality - it seems that the Linn Axis psu is actually a better circuit design as it has built in speed control. maybe I will build one of those and give it a try.

Graham
 
It was the cheapest English made TT available at the time I bought mine. Because I was an apprentice at the time, I was forced into buying 2 of them on the trot, as the kit fell apart in about a year or maybe less. So even though I was training to become a skilled man and putting a Connoisseur BD1 kit together, could be done by an 11yr old, I blamed myself and bought a BD2 (still the cheapest English TT at the time). This broke in about 6 months, a fact which I took to mean that I had put mine together better than Sugden had. I gave up at this point and went to Tottenham Ct Rd where i got a Japanese PL12D on the never-never.
Sounded a lot better with the same Shure M75ED and lasted about 4 years till I sold it on to upgrade.
Of course it is up to you, but before you spend much time and effort, I would advise you to find a better base for your project even If you would rather not believe it.
 
It isn't really a case of whether I believe you or not, but I have heard many more positive reports than negative ones. I think it is true to say that the BD1/2 decks need a bit of looking after as they do have a quirky design so perhaps that was behind your difficulties with them.

Anyway the bottom line (literally) was that my BD1 cost £6.49 so I am unlikely to break the bank, although it did need a belt - still available from T&G. I also replaced the motor mount 'spider' although the old one was fine.

Any talk of Linn Valhalla psu etc is also cheap (and transferrable to any deck with a similar motor) as I will design the layout and build my own version - the circuit is dead simple really.

When I have got it going properly, (in about 6-7 weeks I am working away) I will do a direct comparison with my Rega, I will be able to use the same cartridges as the headshells will fit both arms. Then I will let you know what I think, but it will be just my opinion, if you are in the Berkshire area you are welcome to come and have a listen.

As an aside I was given a PL12D a few months ago, I gave it away..... The bloke who I gave it to said the platter rang like a bell when he pinged it, the BD1 platter by comparison is absolutely 'dead' - to me that seems better.

enjoy

Graham
 
Loads of platters ring and the decks still sound great, as the mat and belt damp them. Even the mighty Garrard 301 and 401 platters ring, hence the platter damping rings touted all over the web.

The reviewers of the time said the PL12D was absolutely the best deck for the money and I was young and lacked cynicism so I bought one. It was def better than connoisseur, but pretty poor by "good" deck standards and it did stay working, a phenomenon I wasn't used to as a connoisseur owner.

If you are talking about an outlay of a very few quid and are having fun then fine, but there are discussions about power supplies on the thread and the cheap, squitty little motor on these decks ain't worth the effort or wonga IMO. I think I remember the motor mount being a rubber band? Class!

The clue to the inherent quality of these decks is in the price they sold for new, compared with other decks of the day. They were the budget deck of the budget decks.

TBH I am curious as to how people think they sound compared to modern budget decks. If I am wrong about them, it will the the surprise of a lifetime - but I am confident I am not. Putting your efforts into an old Goldring is likely to yield much better sonic rewards for the same sort of outlay.

If a BD2 is sounding "nip and tuck" with a TD160, then the Thorens is faulty. Give it a service and have another listen.
 
Barrymidd - thanks for your opinion, you seem to have a strong prejudice against the decks that will probably not be changed by me or anyone else - similarly I will make up my own mind when I get the chance.

My limited understanding of the early motor mount was that it was a bunch of rubber bands and was difficult to keep working, the later version was a one piece rubber mount that works. I can attest to that.

My 'squitty' motor starts the platter without the rubber buffer thing and it always starts in the correct direction as a result of the mechanism within the motor. it does this silently and without any discernible vibration.

Shock, horror - even the mechanical speed change works perfectly (sorry beobloke). It would perhaps be better if the belt slot was a bit wider to reduce the amount of slant in the belt in the 45 rpm position, a switchable psu will cure that though....

If it makes music to your taste then what more could anyone want, after all it is music that we are listening to, not the system (hopefully).

And of course it is British, or English if being parochial.

GR
 
BD1 BD2

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=20087



and my personal comments are :- I rate it higher than the TD160 for pure enjoyment. The motor suspension on elastic bands is a brilliant idea to eliminate vibration - yet is a pain to set up & get correct.- Best advice I can give is to set the motor on some open cell foam to steady it. A piece of Magic eraser will do. I've set mine on a triangular bit of hardboard screwed to the underside of the plinth with the motor resting on foam.

(Edit: Note The original suspension bands were specified & selected by Sugden specially - normal elastic bands won't last the pace you can make a new web from neoprene or leather.)

The BD1 was similar but was marketed as a DIY product so that the user could fit his own choice of arm. The BD2 was preassembled & came with the SAU2 arm. The better headshell for this is the metal headshell.

Technical & General UK stock & sell all the original parts.

The belt if kept out of daylight & strong sunlight will last for years. I've only bought 2 belts in 35 years. (3 belts total)

The idea behind the rubber on the lever start is simply to break inertia of the platter & put less strain on the motor. - ie clever thinking borne of knowledge & understanding.

Apparently Arnold Sugden ignored advice to raise his prices. He had an old fashioned but straightforward philosophy & added a straight percentage mark-up to his component cost.
 
"I think I remember the motor mount being a rubber band? Class!"

Yes, the first suspension was via rubber bands, but not the sort you buy over the counter. I doubt whether Arnold Sugden was a supporter of the class system, or whether he intended his turntable to be purchased primarily by the aristocracy.

I understand that Arnold Sugden designed special rubber bands, selected as fit for purpose. However, I wonder how many more posters on this thread will stop there failing to realise that, as with many other turntables, there have been improved later models. Decades ago, an improved suspension using a different design and an improved motor became standard. Even so, the test specs using the original rubber band suspension and original motor are there for all to see.

However, I add to what Have Fun has quoted from the original Connoisseur Instructions supplied with my new BD1 in 1969.

“…The Connoisseur turntable is a precision engineered product expressly designed to provide a top grade ‘no compromise’ performance at a modest cost…”

“…All running shafts are of high quality carbon steel, lapped and polished with diamond dust to a mirror finish. The main turntable bearing is of phosphor bronze and incorporated a hard steel thrust ball reducing friction and wear to a minimum…”


This unit was designed to be better than necessary . Over a long period of time the spindle/bearing interface will improve and performance should improve if anything, instead of deteriorate. Whether this will happen and happen in every case I do not know, but I DO KNOW THAT I am still using my first spindle and bearing after 41 years of regular use. I bought the unit new.

There is no evidence I can find of any bearing wear affecting the sound adversely. And I add that for many years I have been ‘kick starting’ the motor by pressing down on the record clamp and twirling it. This speaks volumes about the quality of the build as does the fact that in 41 years of use I have only had to replace one motor, and that was because the Hi Fi News Flutterbuster broke down and burned out the BD1 motor in the process. I doubt whether anyone in the next hundred years using my BD1 will have to replace either the spindle, the bearing and perhaps not even the motor.

I trust that the above is of some use to any open minded person wanting a first rate turntable at a bargain basement cost. In modified form (see my AC articles) it performs even better.

If you want inky silent background (no noise) and absolutely no audible rumble to interfere with low level detail, get a Connoisseur BD1 and modify it. If not, go and spent up to thousands of pounds and you may then be satisfied, and a carrier of the British turntable disease: turntableitis!.
 
The idea behind the rubber on the lever start is simply to break inertia of the platter & put less strain on the motor. - ie clever thinking borne of knowledge & understanding.
And budget constraints. He could have used a better and more speed-stable motor instead. The key to any success was that the deck was the cheapest deck available, and appealed to ex radiogram owners looking to get their first separates system.
 
And budget constraints. He could have used a better and more speed-stable motor instead.

Sorry but that is just inaccurate, the motor in my BD1 gets up to speed considerably quicker than that of my Rega, for the latter I have always had to give a hefty spin to the platter on start-up.

But I do agree with the comments on Sugden design philosophy - as a lapsed engineer myself it appeals greatly.

GR
 
And budget constraints. He could have used a better and more speed-stable motor instead. The key to any success was that the deck was the cheapest deck available, and appealed to ex radiogram owners looking to get their first separates system.

The same comment applies to (for example) Garrard & Lenco models (which are now being rediscovered & appreciated).

You seem to be equating low purchase cost with low quality - a big mistake IMO.

The motor is extremely speed stable & durable & most users will attest to that ie 35- 40 years.
 
barrymidd

"It was the cheapest English made TT available at the time I bought mine. Because I was an apprentice at the time, I was forced into buying 2 of them on the trot, as the kit fell apart in about a year or maybe less. So even though I was training to become a skilled man and putting a Connoisseur BD1 kit together, could be done by an 11yr old, I blamed myself and bought a BD2 (still the cheapest English TT at the time). This broke in about 6 months, a fact which I took to mean that I had put mine together better than Sugden had."

It would appear that only your kit (built by your goodself) 'fell apart' after a short period. As you seemed (at one point above) to correctly assume that the cause of this catastrophe was barrymidd why, then, go on to blame the manufacturer? It may be that you were using the units incorrectly, or that there was some external cause for the catastrophes.

I would go this far in agreeing with you: if you purchase a Connoisseur BD1 n.o.s. or second hand and it has been correctly and well assembled despite which it breaks down within a short period, you are entitled to regard it as a piece of junk. However it would seem that you either did not assemble the unit correctly and/or well or you either misused one or both units or there was some reason why the failures inadequacies unique to your units and no one elses.

There is enough evidence on this thread to refute any suggestion of shoddy manufacturer or workmanship by Connoisseur. Moreover, as of as recently as yesterday (10.3.10) I have again been amazed at the superb quality of the genuine Connoisseur parts purchased from T&G - to say nothing of the low cost.
 
The same comment applies to (for example) Garrard & Lenco models (which are now being rediscovered & appreciated).

You seem to be equating low purchase cost with low quality - a big mistake IMO.

The motor is extremely speed stable & durable & most users will attest to that ie 35- 40 years.

If you check the speed stability with an accurate strobe, I am guessing it will be all over the place. I never did back in the day as I was far less technically minded than I am now. Rega decks are notoriously poor in this respect though, so any similarities in design in this aspect of the decks is likely to be a bad thing.

Low production cost always leads to low quality, unless magic fairy dust is incorporated in the manufacturing process.
 
barrymidd

"...If you check the speed stability with an accurate strobe, I am guessing it will be all over the place..."


Why do you rely on guesswork? Are you aware that test reports on speed have been done by reputable reviewers and published on this thread yet again?
 
If you check the speed stability with an accurate strobe, I am guessing it will be all over the place. I never did back in the day as I was far less technically minded than I am now. Rega decks are notoriously poor in this respect though, so any similarities in design in this aspect of the decks is likely to be a bad thing.

Low production cost always leads to low quality, unless magic fairy dust is incorporated in the manufacturing process.

The idea of checking with a strobe is a good one. Then again the same should apply to all tables shouldn't it?

and how would I know its an accurate strobe? (bear in mind the platter diameter here.)
 
The idea of checking with a strobe is a good one. Then again the same should apply to all tables shouldn't it?

and how would I know its an accurate strobe? (bear in mind the platter diameter here.)

The strobe circumference and number of strobe pattern blocks will be in a direct relationship to the frequency of the strobe light itself. Therefore they have to be a matched pair - I have seen add-on devices advertised on fleabay and others but they seem really expensive.

Years ago I remember having a paper strobe disc that relied on the 50 hz from a mains lamp, quite hard to use but it did work. The mains frequency is really quite stable (not so the voltage) so this and the synchronous motors should be pretty accurate as to speed.
But in reality the stability of the speed will depend on many other aspects as well - on the condition and torque of the motor, the belt/pulley condition and cleanliness, the condition of the spindle bearing and the mass of the platter.

GR
 
graham-r


"...When I have got it going properly, (in about 6-7 weeks I am working away) I will do a direct comparison with my Rega, I will be able to use the same cartridges as the headshells will fit both arms. Then I will let you know what I think, but it will be just my opinion, if you are in the Berkshire area you are welcome to come and have a listen..."


I wonder how you will be able to do a satisfactory comparison- just as I wonder how any turntable can be compared to any other turntable. Your two TTs will, presumably, be in different plinths- i.e. different plinth designs, different materials, differences in isolation methods. Even with the same arm and cartridge substantial differences can be caused by the plinth differences. If you put them in identical plinths, this may not be good, either, if the TTs in question perform best in differing kinds of plinths.

As I read you, I am not certain that you will be using the same arm for both turntables; if not, then even more unlikely a valid comparison, save in a rough way.

At any rate, it will make interesting reading to see your findings posted on this thread- whatever your conclusions.
 
Well thanks GR
I've used the paper print off from Vinyl Engine in the past - it did not occur to me it was light bulb frequency related - my main lights are now all low voltage in my room so if I use a low voltage halogen spot like a GU10 will that still be 50Hz?
 
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