Martyn Miles
pfm Member
Ah, the BD1 kit. I had one, as I suspect did many others. I seem to recall it had a 10" dia. platter. I had a AT 1005 arm on it. Happy days... I wonder if they ever come up on eBay ? Martyn Miles .
Sugden Connoisseur - lost classic?
- Thread starter kasperhauser
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eguth
pfm Member
Grahamft
It occurred to me that if you have only bought one belt in forty years and, assuming your new belt is now long in the tooth, it might be worth buying another to try. Belts do stiffen with age I have found, and could possibly affect performance.
I wonder whether you regularly clean the surface of the turntable belt groove at the side of the platter on which the belt sits? I used isopropyl alcohol for this purpose and a clean kitchen roll tissue. After a bit of rubbing you should get detritus off at least, and sometimes black rubber as well. If so, suspect that your belt has worn down, and again you might get an improvement with a new belt (I assume you are getting genuine Connoisseur belts from T&G).
I used Singer Sewing Machine oil on the bearing for decades. Then I thought to throw my natural resistance to 'oily improvements' to the winds and invest in a specialist turntable oil- sold on Ebay under the name ULTIMATE TURNTABLE MAIN BEARING OIL. It costs £8 plus £2 p&p. So far as my ears tell me, it is worth every penny. I havent tried any other oil.
Regards,
Eguth
It occurred to me that if you have only bought one belt in forty years and, assuming your new belt is now long in the tooth, it might be worth buying another to try. Belts do stiffen with age I have found, and could possibly affect performance.
I wonder whether you regularly clean the surface of the turntable belt groove at the side of the platter on which the belt sits? I used isopropyl alcohol for this purpose and a clean kitchen roll tissue. After a bit of rubbing you should get detritus off at least, and sometimes black rubber as well. If so, suspect that your belt has worn down, and again you might get an improvement with a new belt (I assume you are getting genuine Connoisseur belts from T&G).
I used Singer Sewing Machine oil on the bearing for decades. Then I thought to throw my natural resistance to 'oily improvements' to the winds and invest in a specialist turntable oil- sold on Ebay under the name ULTIMATE TURNTABLE MAIN BEARING OIL. It costs £8 plus £2 p&p. So far as my ears tell me, it is worth every penny. I havent tried any other oil.
Regards,
Eguth
eguth
pfm Member
I use a long home made belt, made from 2 seperate ones I purchase from T&G. From time to time- usually at intervals of years- the belt breaks and I have to reglue it. This I used to do with superglue. I now use Zapagap (from Axminster Power Tools at £4.76). This is the best superblue I have found. In the case of belt fracture I find that with Zapagap I get a better join if I do not first cut both ends square as I used to do. I just rejoin after the fracture with one small dip of one end of the belt into the drop of Zapagap that I place on an upside down can of roasted peanuts (empty). A test for the condition of your belt is to stretch it slightly, and observe where there are cuts starting to spread. I find that my belt usually lasts more than 10 years, though it fractures from time to time. If T&G ever stop selling BD1 belts replacements may be made from long belt suppliers. Farnell used to sell the correct diameter, but I don't know whether they still do. If anyone knows suppliers they might post these here for anyone interested.
Eguth
Eguth
I've been reading this thread with great enthusiasm all night yesterday!
I enjoy vintage hi-fi and audio equipment very much and visit a lot of second hand shops and flea markets in my search for more, and more interesting, stuff. Right now my basic set-up is a small unknown American SE tube with 7189-tubes and a pair of Klipsch Belle-ish three-way horn. But I also have other set-ups in my big hi-fi room and these days I’m listening to 4 pairs of Dynaco ('Scandyna' here in Denmark) stacked according to an old Dynaco/Dynamax instruction. It doesn't sound bad at all!
Well, I have some turntables (a Thorens 126 mkII and Luxman 272 in daily frequent use) and ) but since I found a nice Acos Lustre arm G ST1 I felt like building a huge plinth for this arm. As every one else I've been looking for Transcription turntables (like the Thorens 124, Goldring/Lenco 88 and the Garrards) but this kind of turntable is not likely to be found at flea markets a and second hands shops. I almost considered getting a Lenco 75 for the project.
Then last night searching the web for "transcription turntables" the Connoisseur BD1 and this thread came up. And the idea grew on me. And you know what? I have a BD1 sitting on a shelf here in my room!
I've read mr. Stubbes' fascinating and instructive article from '88 and it set free a few ideas.
I'm not going to go all the way (as Stubbes) at once, but building a new plinth with the motor in a separate housing and room for the G-ST1 could be a start. I'm properly going to fax T&G to see if eg. a new motor is available.
Above there was a mentioning of putting a BD1 and the G-ST1 arm together but unfortunately the inserted images are not available.
And mr. Stubbes, few questions for you:
the motor in the separate box is in your construction (still) mounted with the new BD1 suspension. Wouldn't it be better to mount it without the suspension and let the wall (a not the belt) remove any rumble?
you mod the platter too, I understand, and there are many good reasons for that, but do you keep the platter size to 10'' (it's not clear to me, English not been my first language)? And if you do: why isn't it necessary to have a 12'' platter that supports the record in it's full size?
I hope this is not to much to ask in this my very first posting in this fine forum.
Greetings/
Peter Q.
I enjoy vintage hi-fi and audio equipment very much and visit a lot of second hand shops and flea markets in my search for more, and more interesting, stuff. Right now my basic set-up is a small unknown American SE tube with 7189-tubes and a pair of Klipsch Belle-ish three-way horn. But I also have other set-ups in my big hi-fi room and these days I’m listening to 4 pairs of Dynaco ('Scandyna' here in Denmark) stacked according to an old Dynaco/Dynamax instruction. It doesn't sound bad at all!
Well, I have some turntables (a Thorens 126 mkII and Luxman 272 in daily frequent use) and ) but since I found a nice Acos Lustre arm G ST1 I felt like building a huge plinth for this arm. As every one else I've been looking for Transcription turntables (like the Thorens 124, Goldring/Lenco 88 and the Garrards) but this kind of turntable is not likely to be found at flea markets a and second hands shops. I almost considered getting a Lenco 75 for the project.
Then last night searching the web for "transcription turntables" the Connoisseur BD1 and this thread came up. And the idea grew on me. And you know what? I have a BD1 sitting on a shelf here in my room!
I've read mr. Stubbes' fascinating and instructive article from '88 and it set free a few ideas.
I'm not going to go all the way (as Stubbes) at once, but building a new plinth with the motor in a separate housing and room for the G-ST1 could be a start. I'm properly going to fax T&G to see if eg. a new motor is available.
Above there was a mentioning of putting a BD1 and the G-ST1 arm together but unfortunately the inserted images are not available.
And mr. Stubbes, few questions for you:
the motor in the separate box is in your construction (still) mounted with the new BD1 suspension. Wouldn't it be better to mount it without the suspension and let the wall (a not the belt) remove any rumble?
you mod the platter too, I understand, and there are many good reasons for that, but do you keep the platter size to 10'' (it's not clear to me, English not been my first language)? And if you do: why isn't it necessary to have a 12'' platter that supports the record in it's full size?
I hope this is not to much to ask in this my very first posting in this fine forum.
Greetings/
Peter Q.
eguth
pfm Member
Pgrannes
Thanks for your kind remarks about my AC article.
London temperature this week has been like Copenhagen in winter, and my hi fi has suffered (see Audio section thread COLD,COLD, COLD).
And now to try to answer your questions.
i) My BD1 motor is mounted with the new suspension AS MODIFIED by me. Please reread the AC article to see how I modified it.
I dont know how you would mount the motor on the wall safely without any box. Perhaps you propose to damp the box by bolting it to the wall instead of on brackets fixed to the wall? This may be an improvement, but I cant see how motor box resonance adds or detracts from the sound. It is true that the motor does vibrate a bit, even with the new modified suspension, and that if you mounted it rigidly it would not vibrate at all save as the pulley rotates- or probably vibrate much less. The belt is there to remove any vibration from being transmitted to the turntable. The mains lead is coiled before being plugged into the plinth for the same reason. I think that if you plugged it into a separate outlet, not located on the plinth, there would be an improvement- though whether this would be detected on a listening test I do not know. The disadvantage- if it is one- is that you would need a separate on/off switch to start the turntable, since the existing BD1 switch would be redundant. I did consider this option in the AC article. It is a better option to eliminate any possible undesirable effects of having the switch on the plinth. I did see and hear one BD1 that was modified along my AC article lines, with a seperate switch on the motor box.
There is NO rumble to remove on a belt drive TT! That is why I dont use idler drive TTs. (My horn subwoofer goes down to 22Hz).
ii) Yes, I keep the original 10 platter.
iii) Please see AC article on this thread (above). The Farkas (pennies) mod lifts the record above the plinth. Try it! It drastically cuts down/out bearing noise. With this mod, I think that platter size is irrelevant save for speed stability.
Finally, I am still using the same BD1 motor that I was using when I wrote the AC article so long ago. I have so many new BD1 motors in storage that I could bequeath these to my great great, great grandchildren (if I ever have any) and they would probably be able to bequeath them to theirs, unused, since theirs doesnt wear out. These motors just seem to last and last and last. So, if you cant get a new motor from T&G, you might persuade me to sell one of my new motors to you. PM. me if so. I don't promise: I'll need some persuading!
I hope the above is of use to you.
Best regards,
Eguth
Thanks for your kind remarks about my AC article.
London temperature this week has been like Copenhagen in winter, and my hi fi has suffered (see Audio section thread COLD,COLD, COLD).
And now to try to answer your questions.
i) My BD1 motor is mounted with the new suspension AS MODIFIED by me. Please reread the AC article to see how I modified it.
I dont know how you would mount the motor on the wall safely without any box. Perhaps you propose to damp the box by bolting it to the wall instead of on brackets fixed to the wall? This may be an improvement, but I cant see how motor box resonance adds or detracts from the sound. It is true that the motor does vibrate a bit, even with the new modified suspension, and that if you mounted it rigidly it would not vibrate at all save as the pulley rotates- or probably vibrate much less. The belt is there to remove any vibration from being transmitted to the turntable. The mains lead is coiled before being plugged into the plinth for the same reason. I think that if you plugged it into a separate outlet, not located on the plinth, there would be an improvement- though whether this would be detected on a listening test I do not know. The disadvantage- if it is one- is that you would need a separate on/off switch to start the turntable, since the existing BD1 switch would be redundant. I did consider this option in the AC article. It is a better option to eliminate any possible undesirable effects of having the switch on the plinth. I did see and hear one BD1 that was modified along my AC article lines, with a seperate switch on the motor box.
There is NO rumble to remove on a belt drive TT! That is why I dont use idler drive TTs. (My horn subwoofer goes down to 22Hz).
ii) Yes, I keep the original 10 platter.
iii) Please see AC article on this thread (above). The Farkas (pennies) mod lifts the record above the plinth. Try it! It drastically cuts down/out bearing noise. With this mod, I think that platter size is irrelevant save for speed stability.
Finally, I am still using the same BD1 motor that I was using when I wrote the AC article so long ago. I have so many new BD1 motors in storage that I could bequeath these to my great great, great grandchildren (if I ever have any) and they would probably be able to bequeath them to theirs, unused, since theirs doesnt wear out. These motors just seem to last and last and last. So, if you cant get a new motor from T&G, you might persuade me to sell one of my new motors to you. PM. me if so. I don't promise: I'll need some persuading!
I hope the above is of use to you.
Best regards,
Eguth
Eguth,
Thank you for your fast reply.
I'll re-read your article and get a clear picture of the modifications of the suspension you've made.
I'm getting a better idea of what I like to do with the BD1 (something kept me awake last night - maybe a full moon - and I thought about my new turntable for hours.
This is the overall idea now:
I guess the weight of the board will be about 15-20 kg.
At first I'll stick to the motor and bearing I have. It would be easy to upgrade as I go along.
I've just set up the un-moded BD1 with my test stereo and a cheap Ortofon PU: it sounds very, very (and disturbing) good (but with some rumble from the motor) and I might have to try it on my main rig!
I happened to find an email-address of Technical & General and wrote them and asked for two belt.
PQR
Thank you for your fast reply.
I'll re-read your article and get a clear picture of the modifications of the suspension you've made.
I'm getting a better idea of what I like to do with the BD1 (something kept me awake last night - maybe a full moon - and I thought about my new turntable for hours.
This is the overall idea now:
- Move the motor and on/off button to another (metal) board mounted on a massive (3-4 layer of mdf-board) block of wood.
- Make a huge plinth (3-4 layer of mdf-board) of wood with the centre bearing (somehow) mounted a bit to the left of the middle
- install the Lustre GST1 arm on a similar (metal) board to the right of the platter.
I guess the weight of the board will be about 15-20 kg.
At first I'll stick to the motor and bearing I have. It would be easy to upgrade as I go along.
I've just set up the un-moded BD1 with my test stereo and a cheap Ortofon PU: it sounds very, very (and disturbing) good (but with some rumble from the motor) and I might have to try it on my main rig!
I happened to find an email-address of Technical & General and wrote them and asked for two belt.
PQR
eguth
pfm Member
I will comment on what you say:
1) How will you isolate the motor from the plinth?
2) Concrete would be better in my opinion, and probably easier to work with.
3) You cannot get the performance possible with the BD1 using the old motor. The old motor is less powerful and will not allow you to use the new suspension, because there is no retaining clip. T&G might, however, sell you only the retaining clip, but you need to confirm with them that it will fit into the old motor. Why not trade -in the old motor for the new one with the new suspension, if T&G still do this? A small additional expense, given the leap in performance.
4) What is the email address of T&G?
Regards,
Eguth
1) How will you isolate the motor from the plinth?
2) Concrete would be better in my opinion, and probably easier to work with.
3) You cannot get the performance possible with the BD1 using the old motor. The old motor is less powerful and will not allow you to use the new suspension, because there is no retaining clip. T&G might, however, sell you only the retaining clip, but you need to confirm with them that it will fit into the old motor. Why not trade -in the old motor for the new one with the new suspension, if T&G still do this? A small additional expense, given the leap in performance.
4) What is the email address of T&G?
Regards,
Eguth
Thx again.
1) It is my plan to put the motor in a separat "plinth" and not in the plinth with the platter and the arm. The two plinths will stand side by side: I know that the separation between a) the motor and b) the platter and arm is not as ideal as your solution. But with good damping feet on both plinth I expect the rumble to minimal.
I've been using the BD1 as it is and there is a lot rumble from the motor.
2) Concrete is obviously better but I'll give it a try with multilayered mdf-boards
3) This is a very, very low budget project and I'll give it a try with the original motor first. Possible upgrades will be part of the project.
4) I sent an email to this address [email protected] - as found somewhere on the web - but haven't got any reply yet.
PQR
eguth
pfm Member
Have a relook at the test report by Jones reprinted on p.2 of my AC article. That test was carried out on the bog standard BD1. What you are hearing are the effects of motor vibration and/or bearing noise. Both are completely eliminated in the modified BD1- for all practical purposes. You may, also, be getting some hum, but I doubt whether you would hear that as rumble.
eguth
pfm Member
I should have added that it is useful to carry out my 'meniscus' test (see the AC article) as you go along, to see how succesful you are in eliminating vibration transferred from the motor.
Try it on your existing setup at the moment; you will be surprised! All you need is a small can filled partly with water, and a lamp or torch. You will soon see whether the meniscus on top of the water shakes like a leaf, or is still. Try it both with the motor off and with it on.
Try it on your existing setup at the moment; you will be surprised! All you need is a small can filled partly with water, and a lamp or torch. You will soon see whether the meniscus on top of the water shakes like a leaf, or is still. Try it both with the motor off and with it on.
Thank you for more comments, Eguth!
I guess I should find my reading glasses (yes, I'm entering that age) and take a closer look at you article.
And yes, I'm quite sure that the 'rumble' I hear is noise from a not well tuned motor. The tests sound interesting and useful.
PQR
I guess I should find my reading glasses (yes, I'm entering that age) and take a closer look at you article.
And yes, I'm quite sure that the 'rumble' I hear is noise from a not well tuned motor. The tests sound interesting and useful.
PQR
eguth
pfm Member
You are making good progress. Since your motor is making noise it needs to be oiled. Please put one or two drops (not more) of a light oil, such as sewing machine oil, on the felt pad just below the pulley, near the shaft. That should be sufficient to stop the noise. It is best to remove the pulley first, but this is not absolutely essential. The new (improved) pulley from T&G is worth getting.
As far as the meniscus test is concerned there are three steps:
i) put the small can half full of water on the plinth, on the armrest under the cartridge or near the arm. Motor off. Shine a light onto the water to see whether the meniscus is absolutely still. If it isn't, you have air currents. In this case, cover the tin with a small piece of perspex; now as soon as it is absolutely still-
ii) turn the motor on. Wait 20 seconds or so for the meniscus wobble to stop. If it doesn't stop, you have not isolated the motor sufficiently;
ii) when you get the motor sufficiently isolated, put a record on, preferably with a lot of heavy bass notes. Play music. If the meniscus wobbles or shakes AT ALL you may be getting vibration transmitted through the plinth. Have you wall mounted a sand- filled shelf? Have you cited the plinth on a waterbed (see article) on the sand- filled wall- mounted shelf? Is your plinth heavy enough and does it contain sufficient concrete? If the answer to all of these is 'yes' then the cause may be air currents set in motion by your woofer. To find out, put a perspex turntable cover over the record while playing music. If all wobble stops it is air borne, if not back to the drawing board!
I have tested a number of turntables, some very expensive with the meniscus test. Some test allright, none I have tested have tested any better than my modified BD1.
As far as the meniscus test is concerned there are three steps:
i) put the small can half full of water on the plinth, on the armrest under the cartridge or near the arm. Motor off. Shine a light onto the water to see whether the meniscus is absolutely still. If it isn't, you have air currents. In this case, cover the tin with a small piece of perspex; now as soon as it is absolutely still-
ii) turn the motor on. Wait 20 seconds or so for the meniscus wobble to stop. If it doesn't stop, you have not isolated the motor sufficiently;
ii) when you get the motor sufficiently isolated, put a record on, preferably with a lot of heavy bass notes. Play music. If the meniscus wobbles or shakes AT ALL you may be getting vibration transmitted through the plinth. Have you wall mounted a sand- filled shelf? Have you cited the plinth on a waterbed (see article) on the sand- filled wall- mounted shelf? Is your plinth heavy enough and does it contain sufficient concrete? If the answer to all of these is 'yes' then the cause may be air currents set in motion by your woofer. To find out, put a perspex turntable cover over the record while playing music. If all wobble stops it is air borne, if not back to the drawing board!
I have tested a number of turntables, some very expensive with the meniscus test. Some test allright, none I have tested have tested any better than my modified BD1.
Thanks again.
When I took the motor out of the turntable I saw (and remembered) what I did some years ago when I constructed my own three legged rubber suspension (close to the one you describe in the article but without the leather part). Since I didn't have the retaining clip then (and now) I stuck the suspension to the detachable top plate of the motor. And it was obvious that the motor wasn't put accurate back together and didn't turn free. I does now and even got a few drops of oil. Most of the hum/rumble is gone.
I guess a better mat at the platter or the Farkas-coin-trick will remove some too.
When I get in contact with T&G (I've found more than one reference to the above mentioned email address and instructions to be patient on the internet) I'll see if they still sell the nylon retaining clip.
I wonder if my motor could be the improved kind. How do you tell?
PQR
When I took the motor out of the turntable I saw (and remembered) what I did some years ago when I constructed my own three legged rubber suspension (close to the one you describe in the article but without the leather part). Since I didn't have the retaining clip then (and now) I stuck the suspension to the detachable top plate of the motor. And it was obvious that the motor wasn't put accurate back together and didn't turn free. I does now and even got a few drops of oil. Most of the hum/rumble is gone.
I guess a better mat at the platter or the Farkas-coin-trick will remove some too.
When I get in contact with T&G (I've found more than one reference to the above mentioned email address and instructions to be patient on the internet) I'll see if they still sell the nylon retaining clip.
I wonder if my motor could be the improved kind. How do you tell?
PQR
eguth
pfm Member
PQR
I dont know how to tell whether your motor is the old or new one. The new one always used to be sold by T&G with the new suspension, so I am pretty certain that you have the old one. I wouldnt place any faith in your way of doing the suspension. If I understand what you have done, you are probably going to get vibration from the motor transmitted through your modified suspension into the plinth and onwards.
I, also, have had no reply to an email I sent to T&G. Ill be patient!
MIKE YORK
Yes, images would be interesting. I would be interested in seeing how you tie an SME arm to a platter.
I dont know how to tell whether your motor is the old or new one. The new one always used to be sold by T&G with the new suspension, so I am pretty certain that you have the old one. I wouldnt place any faith in your way of doing the suspension. If I understand what you have done, you are probably going to get vibration from the motor transmitted through your modified suspension into the plinth and onwards.
I, also, have had no reply to an email I sent to T&G. Ill be patient!
MIKE YORK
Yes, images would be interesting. I would be interested in seeing how you tie an SME arm to a platter.
Eguth
Well, my suspension solution is not better that the "new suspension" but it is a solution. I definitely need a clip.
Mike York
It could be very interesting and inspiring to see you Connpoisseur with a SME arm!
By the way Signals UK sell new suspension and belts for the Connoisseur. Go to www.signalsuk.com and make a search for "connoisseur".
PQR
Well, my suspension solution is not better that the "new suspension" but it is a solution. I definitely need a clip.
Mike York
It could be very interesting and inspiring to see you Connpoisseur with a SME arm!
By the way Signals UK sell new suspension and belts for the Connoisseur. Go to www.signalsuk.com and make a search for "connoisseur".
PQR
eguth
pfm Member
What follows is a money saver if ever there was one.
For those who make up their own long transcription belts for a modified BD1 I have successfully made a better one out of thread. Its performance is audibly superior to a newly- made rubber belt of genuine Connoisseur origin.
I used four (4) turns of Gutermann 100% polyester thread Model 782 (CA 02 776), tied in a simple knot. I first tried silk thread, as recommended by Dr. van den Hul, but found it too difficult to work with. This brand and model of polyester thread is thicker, many times stronger and does not visibly wobble during rotation- unlike the rubber belt. It is available in various colours, for those of you who go in for designer mods.
I suspect that such a home- made polyester belt might also improve the performance of other hi end, standard off the shelf turntables that use rubber belts.
If anyone has successfully contacted T&G in the last few weeks please post here.
For those who make up their own long transcription belts for a modified BD1 I have successfully made a better one out of thread. Its performance is audibly superior to a newly- made rubber belt of genuine Connoisseur origin.
I used four (4) turns of Gutermann 100% polyester thread Model 782 (CA 02 776), tied in a simple knot. I first tried silk thread, as recommended by Dr. van den Hul, but found it too difficult to work with. This brand and model of polyester thread is thicker, many times stronger and does not visibly wobble during rotation- unlike the rubber belt. It is available in various colours, for those of you who go in for designer mods.
I suspect that such a home- made polyester belt might also improve the performance of other hi end, standard off the shelf turntables that use rubber belts.
If anyone has successfully contacted T&G in the last few weeks please post here.
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