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Sugden A21 SE: signature or not ?

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daniele_g

pfm Member
hi all,
I'm attracted by this little but very well considered class A amp, and I see there are several versions of it.
I think the most interesting to me are the SE versions (due to their 30wpc and the larger power supply), but I don't know the differences between SE Signature and SE "non Signature".
can anyone tell me about it ?
I'm sure interested in different components and so on, but what I most care about is difference in sound.
thanks.
 
Can’t help re. the difference in sound: mine is the early SE and I have never heard the signature version which is supposed to have certain lower impedance components.
What I can tell you in my case is that theAlps blue pot was certainly holding it back compared to the eBay Chinese 50k log stepped SMD attenuators I fitted to substitute the original pot. Much, much, much better all round. So if you do end up with a standard SE, go for this change ( of course, you will lose the remote volume but who needs that !
 
I beg your pardon, Chris: do you mean that the Chinese one is much, much, much better ? did I get it right ?
and better... in what terms ?
thanks
 
Chris said:
Can’t help re. the difference in sound: mine is the early SE and I have never heard the signature version which is supposed to have certain lower impedance components.
What I can tell you in my case is that theAlps blue pot was certainly holding it back compared to the eBay Chinese 50k log stepped SMD attenuators I fitted to substitute the original pot. Much, much, much better all round. So if you do end up with a standard SE, go for this change ( of course, you will lose the remote volume but who needs that !
Click to expand...

You may be right: I haven't heard that modification against standard. It's worth noting that if you modify the amp in such a way you will vastly reduce its resale value, plus I doubt Sugden would touch it in the future. No problem if that is understood, but worth highlighting to others potentially reading this post who wouldn't have been aware of these issues.
 
well, actually I'm not used to modify amps or any other stuff, I'd probably keep it as it is.
but I wonder if that original pot may be an 'Achille's heel', if a cheap Chinese stuff is such a huge improvement.
 
simon g said:
You may be right: I haven't heard that modification against standard. It's worth noting that if you modify the amp in such a way you will vastly reduce its resale value, plus I doubt Sugden would touch it in the future. No problem if that is understood, but worth highlighting to others potentially reading this post who wouldn't have been aware of these issues.
Click to expand...
No sweat as I won’t be selling it. I’ve still got my A48Ii from 1976. It’s not the only mod. I’ve done, I also changed the output caps for some Panasonic’s rated for 105 degrees instead of the 65 degrees of the originals Average ambirent temperature here in the Canaries is 20 plus so the A21SE sometimes gets really hot, uncomfortable to the touch, not just warm. The original caps looked well swollen when I changed them. As I only ever need one source I fitted another attenuator in place of the source switch which allowed me to convert it into a 2 volume /balance control, using the same source knob so I didn’t need to cut or drill anything.
Sound wise the 18 euro attenuators are basically more transparent and allow you to really hear what the Suggie is capable of. It makes everything more believable and live sounding. I honestly believe the Alps are slugging the amp big time. Time will tell if they last as long.
 
simon g said:
You may be right: I haven't heard that modification against standard. It's worth noting that if you modify the amp in such a way you will vastly reduce its resale value, plus I doubt Sugden would touch it in the future. No problem if that is understood, but worth highlighting to others potentially reading this post who wouldn't have been aware of these issues.
Click to expand...

Sugden is not the only servicing source for Sugden amps.... I repair, modify, rebuild etc ALL makes of amp and I'm just doing another complete rebuild of an original A21 from the late '60s at the moment... down to replacing all the resistors and transistors even and finishing with a better-than-brand-new unit:)
 
Arkless,
as you know so well Sugden products, could you please tell me about the differences between A21SE and A21SE Signature ?
thanks
 
I thought those were the differences between A21 (23wpc) and A21SE (30wpc, 50% larger power supply), without "Signature"
how many wpc's for A21 SE Sig ?
 
The difference between the A21a and the A21SE is much more than just a few watts. I often wonder why they didn´t use a different name for the 21SE. It really is a different animal. Most people tend to think all the Sugden A21 integrated amps are basically the same, as indeed they are as far as the basic circuit in the power amp is concerned but delivery is sweeter in the earlier models whereas the SE is much more incisive, informative and detailed when the music gets complex. At least that´s how I hear it - hence my use of a valve phono stage to try and get a bit of both worlds.
Phone Patrick Miller at Sugdens, good guy, he´ll put you straight (and probably try to send you a Masterclass, for your own good of course.
 
The A21SE and A21SE Sig are the same size and power, the difference is Sugden have used higher spec components in the Signature version.

I've owned the A21a, A21a2 and A21SE, agree that the SE is a different animal to the other A21's and shouldn't really be considered as an A21.
 
I bought the A21 (non SE) from a dealer a year or so ago. He told me that he wouldn't stock the SE version as it wasn't a proper "Sugden" as in it didn't give the traditional Sugden Class A sound.

I haven't heard one so couldn't say.
 
I suspect it was the traditional Sugden sound he was referring to . I think the confusion arises from people referring to all of them as Sugden A21 when that was only the name of its first encarnation ( when Sugden was J.E. Sugden - 12w, wooden sleeve, sweet as a nut) when people thought Sugdens sounded "valve-like" (as in valve amps of yesteryear - old fashioned, warm , little bass definition but cosy as hell).
The last word I would use to describe modern Sugdens, including the A21Se, is "cosy". Much more Halloween, but agreeable with it, than Christmas.

So I guess he didn´t stock the Masterclass models either and what about the Grande power amps ?
 
The original A21 can sound very good. I've rebuilt several lately and found them very nice sounding units. 7.5W not 12 into 8R speaker for the first version, which was originally marketed as a Richard Alan product. 10W for later version, last of this incarnation is where it gets confusing as although it's called A21 it is not class A, is 20WPC and of completely different topology!
The first ones had bias set by the drop across two BAX38 diodes, one lot in the follower and one lot in the current source... so 4 diodes had to be selected and matched to each other! per channel! It gets worse... these work in conjunction with resistors in the region of 220R but which must be selected to give the correct bias. A production nightmare! The MkII is very similar but uses a Vbe multiplier in an interesting way to replace all the diodes and allow easy setting up of the bias.
They are not strictly speaking single ended (a good thing!) but modulate the current source to give greater efficiency and lower distortion. This is done from the output so a bit cruder than the similar john Linsley Hood 10W class A design which also modulates the current source.
 
Chris said:
I suspect it was the traditional Sugden sound he was referring to . I think the confusion arises from people referring to all of them as Sugden A21 when that was only the name of its first encarnation ( when Sugden was J.E. Sugden - 12w, wooden sleeve, sweet as a nut) when people thought Sugdens sounded "valve-like" (as in valve amps of yesteryear - old fashioned, warm , little bass definition but cosy as hell).
The last word I would use to describe modern Sugdens, including the A21Se, is "cosy". Much more Halloween, but agreeable with it, than Christmas.

So I guess he didn´t stock the Masterclass models either and what about the Grande power amps ?
Click to expand...

No - literally the entry level Amp and CD Player.
 
thank you for all the answers so far.
I still can't understand the sonic differences between A21SE and A21SE Signature, though, apart from higher specs components.

Chris said:
The last word I would use to describe modern Sugdens, including the A21Se, is "cosy". Much more Halloween, but agreeable with it, than Christmas.
Click to expand...
mmm... I must confess I did not get the meaning of the Halloween-Christmas comparison, when transferred to sound. but the first sentence, about a change in Sugden sound in modern models, worries me. should it, or not ?
 
By Halloween I meant warts ´n´all, not artificially tinselly and nice. Christmas is all right once a year but if every day were "warm and cosy" you´d soon get sick of it. Does today´s even basic Linn sound like one from 1980 ? No way, especially the bass. I think you would have your work cut out to find anything new today that sounds like my 1970s vintage Sugden A48II. To me the A21SE seems so much more informative than even the A21a in my opinion but of course when I had my A21a, I also had a different cartridge and phono stage.
Regarding the difference between the A32Se and the A21SE Signature, I doubt many people are in a position to express an opinion. I , for one, would be more interested in the difference between A21Se and the IA-4 masterclass if I had a few grand to spare.
 
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