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Subwoofer setup

Purité Audio said:
So with traditional loudspeakers if their bass set off a standing wave ( purely dependent upon the rooms dimensions) this could lead to ‘boomy’ or ‘one more’ bass, the only way traditionally to cure this was to shuffle the speakers out until you found the quarter wave length of the frequency that was causing the issue.
So 70Hz nearly a five metre long wavelength one quarter a metre 25cm say.
But with Roon you can push them back, avoid any cancellation gain a bit more headroom and if there are standing wave peaks we can use Roon’s PEQ to lop the top off those peaks.
That 70-150Hz area is important for punch we don’t really want a broad cancellation there.
Keith
Click to expand...

Ok so Ive moved the speakers around and this is the best I can manage. I may be wrong but the left one looks improved?

Proac Left
https://postimg.cc/qtH2jtZ3

Proac Right

https://postimg.cc/B8fwHnTh
 
camverton said:
It might be worth pointing out that the first job is to find the best position of the main speakers for the individual listener. The best position for someone interested in their hifi recreating the best illusion of the original music will likely not be the best position for someone interested in using there hifi to analyse the recording and vice versa. Both approaches are of course perfectly valid but are likely to lead to different solutions. Of course, it may be that the “best” position for the mains has to be compromised to get the best overall presentation with subs and mains.

The beauty of using subs is that one can have the main speakers in the “best” position according to taste and the subs in the best place for low frequencies where their position is less important aurally. In my experience this is often not adjacent to the mains and is why even full, or near full, range speakers can benefit from subs.

I find measuring with REW is an invaluable tool in setting up subs; the alignment tool in REW can save a great deal of time and measuring when determining phase and gain. The only thing is to keep correlating the measurements with what you are hearing and learn what matters to us individually rather than get too hung up on achieving a flat frequency response for the sake of it.

As for position of subs within the room there are no end of theories and opinions of what works best, even more so with multiple subs. There are many threads on this and other forums as well as guidelines on manufacturer websites. The SVS subs website may be worth a look even if using a different make.
Click to expand...


Thanks. I have improved the situation due to Keith's helpful input. Real world listening is good as well. Voices are in the center and I'm happy with the sound, the best I've had so far?

Just not sure how best to use Rew to integrate the two subs. What method did you use?
 
Sam Smith said:
Thanks. I have improved the situation due to Keith's helpful input. Real world listening is good as well. Voices are in the center and I'm happy with the sound, the best I've had so far?

Just not sure how best to use Rew to integrate the two subs. What method did you use?
Click to expand...
What method? FWIW and just for interest as I’m not suggesting you should necessarily follow this, I’m currently using a miniDSP SHD to integrate two mains with two subs. I have also integrated by running the mains full range and utilising the low pass filter on the subs so that they “come in under” the mains. The mains are positioned to give the most realistic illusion of an original performance. The subs are positioned partly by experience of the room and partly trial and error. As for measuring, I measure each speaker, from the listening position, individually using a umik mic with a timing signal and then align various combinations of the speakers in the REW alignment tool and try various combinations of phase and gain and also looking at impulse. Once I have got this as good as possible for my needs and dialled the results into the miniDSP I then run Dirac Live. In practice I end up with a choice of main speakers only, mains and subs with no EQ other than gain and phase on the subs and also with Dirac processing. Which is best? Depends on the type of music and what I fancy at the time and bear in mind that my mains are slightly unusual in design!

Please bear in mind this is starting to get down into the nitty gritty of REW, which as a versatile tool does require a certain amount of knowledge, expertise and experience (I make no particular claim for the first two! but some for the last). At first it might be best to keep it simple and follow a basic guide as Keith is giving you. There are lengthy guides on how to use REW to set up subs so some research should bring up some good ones which someone has probably taken quite a while to write. REW does have a steep learning curve and the theory behind even more so, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t useful in a more basic way.

Best of luck, looks as though you are making progress. Whereabouts are you? Someone who lives nearby might be willing to help you.
 
Purité Audio said:
Are the speakers toed in so that the tweeters point directly at you ?
Keith
Click to expand...

No very slight toe in about
Purité Audio said:
Are the speakers toed in so that the tweeters point directly at you ?
Keith
Click to expand...

They only have very slight to in about 2cm and they are 2 meters apart.

I contacted proac who sent me this which is the manufacturer measurements of the speaker.

SPL-curve-Tab-10-Sig.png


Should I adjust the toe in as the center image is pretty good.

Cheers
 
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camverton said:
What method? FWIW and just for interest as I’m not suggesting you should necessarily follow this, I’m currently using a miniDSP SHD to integrate two mains with two subs. I have also integrated by running the mains full range and utilising the low pass filter on the subs so that they “come in under” the mains. The mains are positioned to give the most realistic illusion of an original performance. The subs are positioned partly by experience of the room and partly trial and error. As for measuring, I measure each speaker, from the listening position, individually using a umik mic with a timing signal and then align various combinations of the speakers in the REW alignment tool and try various combinations of phase and gain and also looking at impulse. Once I have got this as good as possible for my needs and dialled the results into the miniDSP I then run Dirac Live. In practice I end up with a choice of main speakers only, mains and subs with no EQ other than gain and phase on the subs and also with Dirac processing. Which is best? Depends on the type of music and what I fancy at the time and bear in mind that my mains are slightly unusual in design!

Please bear in mind this is starting to get down into the nitty gritty of REW, which as a versatile tool does require a certain amount of knowledge, expertise and experience (I make no particular claim for the first two! but some for the last). At first it might be best to keep it simple and follow a basic guide as Keith is giving you. There are lengthy guides on how to use REW to set up subs so some research should bring up some good ones which someone has probably taken quite a while to write. REW does have a steep learning curve and the theory behind even more so, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t useful in a more basic way.

Best of luck, looks as though you are making progress. Whereabouts are you? Someone who lives nearby might be willing to help you.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Im in Scotland.

A lot of what you said looks tricky but at the moment Im just starting learning about it all i guess.

Perhaps i will do some trial and error measurements with REW and someone can chime in on basic setup then look at using Roon.

Cheers
 
Sam Smith said:
No very slight toe in about


They only have very slight to in about 2cm and they are 2 meters apart.

I contacted proac who sent me this which is the manufacturer measurements of the speaker.

https://postimg.cc/ftT3mC38

Should I adjust the toe in as the center image is pretty good.

Cheers
Click to expand...
That plot shows a slightly rising treble, they didn’t say how that measurement was made?
Treble output again in traditional designs falls away pretty quickly off-axis maybe try adjusting the speakers so the tweeters are pointing directly at you.
Keith
 
Purité Audio said:
That plot shows a slightly rising treble, they didn’t say how that measurement was made?
Treble output again in traditional designs falls away pretty quickly off-axis maybe try adjusting the speakers so the tweeters are pointing directly at you.
Keith
Click to expand...

No they just said here is the spl curve of the speakers.

I'm connected via 3.5mm jack from laptop to aux I guess maybe the cable could affect things.
 
It's not my system of course but I'm not sure if I could live with that amount of HF roll-off given the hump at 3kHz-4kHz which will have a psychoacoustic 'masking' effect on the frequencies above it. Adding/extending the low-end with a subwoofer will also tilt the overall presentation warmer and may make you more aware of the existing HF rolloff. Toeing-in may not only lift the HF response for a touch more air and sparkle but could also help to ameliorate the 3kHz-4kHz hump and make the presentation a little less forward-sounding. Worth a try if such a change appeals to you.
 
Evening,

Setup the subs and did it by ear then did some measurements. Not sure how to interpret the data.

I matched the phase to each channel left and right using a tone and the highest spl reading.I then measured it and the bass didn't show on the chart.

Each REL sub only has either 0 - 180 setting I then flicked the phase on the sub with the closest SPL reading in terms of phase and the bass was back when I remeasured.

Attached is the Chart of everything

Crossover set to 47.5
Gain on each sub low at about 4 clicks out of 40. Rel says typically 11 when using one sub so maybe that is to be expected.

Black = Strange reading with no bass
Red = Proac speaker right without sub
Green = Proac speake left without sub
Blue = Both speakers with the phase switched flicked and the best looking response I could get(not that I actually know anything so probably wrong).

Proac-Chart.jpg


I dont think the two subs are that powerful and I think that is because they are fairly small.

Any interpretation of what is going welcome and any adjustments that may be in order

Cheers
 
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ToTo Man said:
It's not my system of course but I'm not sure if I could live with that amount of HF roll-off given the hump at 3kHz-4kHz which will have a psychoacoustic 'masking' effect on the frequencies above it. Adding/extending the low-end with a subwoofer will also tilt the overall presentation warmer and may make you more aware of the existing HF rolloff. Toeing-in may not only lift the HF response for a touch more air and sparkle but could also help to ameliorate the 3kHz-4kHz hump and make the presentation a little less forward-sounding. Worth a try if such a change appeals to you.
Click to expand...

Thanks,

I adjusted the toe in and same problem. I'm actually wondering if the issue could be the analogue input in the Naim Atom. I found an article on it and when measured it had an early roll off due to digitising everything

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/naim-uniti-atom-review-streamer-amp.35213/

Not sure if this could account for the measurements I'm getting or if that isn't possible.

I added in an old measurement I had from a different speaker and it looks the same. Something seems to be dragging the treble down.

The highest line on the chart is the different speaker

Treble-roll-off.jpg


The other option is that something is wrong with the speakers?

Cheers

Sam
 
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Sam Smith said:
Evening,

Setup the subs and did it by ear then did some measurements. Not sure how to interpret the data.

I matched the phase to each channel left and right using a tone and the highest spl reading.I then measured it and the bass didn't show on the chart.

Each REL sub only has either 0 - 180 setting I then flicked the phase on the sub with the closest SPL reading in terms of phase and the bass was back when I remeasured.

Attached is the Chart of everything

Crossover set to 47.5
Gain on each sub low at about 4 clicks out of 40. Rel says typically 11 when using one sub so maybe that is to be expected.

Black = Strange reading with no bass
Red = Proac speaker right without sub
Green = Proac speake left without sub
Blue = Both speakers with the phase switched flicked and the best looking response I could get(not that I actually know anything so probably wrong).

https://postimg.cc/cgt70QpH

I dont think the two subs are that powerful and I think that is because they are fairly small.

Any interpretation of what is going welcome and any adjustments that may be in order

Cheers
Click to expand...
Sam, if you follow gintonic’s instructions here https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/uploading-photos.278105/#post-4955241 to add photos to your posts, it’ll be better for us all to see on this thread. You’re already using postimages so you’re very nearly there.

Really good thread, thanks.
 
Turn up the gain on the subs, keep the crossover the same, measure again, then perhaps try crossing at 80Hz, you have to just experiment with the phase, ideally a flat ( less wiggly as possible) FR which has around a 10dB drop from 20-20kHz.
There is a limit to what you can achieve in a shared domestic room which is largely ‘untreated’ as good as you can and then enjoy.
Keith
 
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