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Subs with electrostatics; is this a tricky one?

...on Audioasylum one person(audio professional) reported he tried to damage these restored Quads with torture power... without any success...
 
I used ESL57s on the One Thing Audio stands and then went hunting for a sub. I tried several including RELs of different flavours. I finally found the Linn Sizmik, which I found worked best if it was firing at right angles to the Quads. Used this combination for several years and the integration was seamless. In later years I also used Behringer DEQ2496 room correction as well. I eventually went for Martin Logan summits (they have got the bass integration totally sorted nowadays!), but the Quad 57/Sizmik setup is still in use on my TV system.
 
JemHayward said:
Martin Logan summits (they have got the bass integration totally sorted nowadays!),
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Not sure which ones they demoed at the Whittlebury show but they had shocking bass coherence. The bass in that room is proablaby still audible now, it was so far behind the rest of the music.
 
I've only listened to the Summits in recent years - did a bit of auditioning of the range a few years back and none of the ones I listened to had the traditional bass problems. They are very sensitive to positioning and setup, and I can imagine rooms where the ideal position for imaging isn't the best for the bass, but my Summits have 25hz and 50hz trim pots and dedicated power amps for the bass drivers. I listen to a lot of drumming music and the coherence, and sheer bass extension still amazes me after several years of ownership. My room is quite small and has hard floor and low ceiling - not sure any other speaker would work well in there anyway.
 
Arkless Repairs said:
I'm not so sure about this one.... if low bass is filtered out and fed to the subwoofer then that's a whole lot of the volts not going to the bass panels in the first place... plus there will be less excursion meaning that the distance an arc would have to travel to ionise in the first place would not be reduced on each half cycle....
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The bass panels are partly self protecting, unlike the HF panels.
On the bass panels, the signal is applied to the outside of the stators, and the charged diaphragm cannot be driven into a 'live' stator as a result. The air gap is also wider.
On the HF panels the signal is applied to the inside of the stator and the distance to the charged diaphragm is much smaller.

Dowser said:
Is that correct? Interesting (I always fancied providing a dedicated HV supply to each panel).

I would add that getting either 57s or 63s up off the floor improves bass clarity IMO, with 57s getting better when they are tilted vertical, and 63s back a bit. All in my experience.

Richard
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The transformers are very different.
The 57 transformer, in combination with a handful of caps and resistors, also acts as crossover for the three ESL sections. Bass, MId/HF, upper HF.
 
JemHayward said:
I used ESL57s on the One Thing Audio stands and then went hunting for a sub. I tried several including RELs of different flavours. I finally found the Linn Sizmik, which I found worked best if it was firing at right angles to the Quads. Used this combination for several years and the integration was seamless. In later years I also used Behringer DEQ2496 room correction as well. I eventually went for Martin Logan summits (they have got the bass integration totally sorted nowadays!), but the Quad 57/Sizmik setup is still in use on my TV system.
Click to expand...

A little off track but I also use a sizmik but not with quads. It has dispelled my scepticism of subs though I look forward to a return to full range speakers when I can at some point in the future. Mine is sideways on which I wouldn't have believed until I tried it. Always lots to learn with this audio malarkey, particularly rooms and speakers.
 
afewbeers said:
A little off track but I also use a sizmik but not with quads. It has dispelled my scepticism of subs though I look forward to a return to full range speakers when I can at some point in the future. Mine is sideways on which I wouldn't have believed until I tried it. Always lots to learn with this audio malarkey, particularly rooms and speakers.
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The other odd thing with the Sizmik is that it DOESN'T sound better with spiked feet. I did try the bigger version when it came out, but reverted back to the smaller one as the big one lost that tightness that the Sizmik does so well. It must be said that the bass from my MLs is even tighter and measurably deeper, but most subs seem to go for quantity over quality.
 
Interesting Jem, I also went for the smaller thinking it might be a bit tighter and quicker for music as I have no interest in home cinema. Ultimately it doesn't have the slam tht say a pair of kudos titans might but it means I do get to keep the magical bits of the micro Utopias. Anyway nice to get lucky with set ups every now and then!

It might be worth the op buying a used one, having a play and moving on if it doesn't work.
 
Yomanze said:
These are interesting & look the part for extremely fast speakers: http://www.tbisound.com/index.asp

Too bad I can't seem to find them in the UK!

http://stereotimes.com/speak112204.shtml
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tbisound active subs have a good reputation
problem the supplied amp does not have approval for europe yet
but could/might in the future , you can of course use buy the passive
version & use another amp to drive them

virtually no sub can match the speed required for a ESL or seamlessly
match the ESL panel

only one i have ever heard that works is this one i use myself by sanders model10c

10inch transmission line. 8 foot folded unit with a special custom driver
over 10years in design , Flat to 22hertz with a digital external crossover
driven by sanders magtech amp 2x900wpc
Vast dynamics . scale , speed and power ( can push open a door & shake the walls ! )
or you can drive with the bigger mono sanders rated @ 2,000wpc

http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/transmission-line-wp

http://stereotimes.com/amp051412.shtml

these are fitted to the sanders 10c ESL hybrid speakers

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=686
 
It isn't the speed of the driver that's the issue at LF, it's combining a dipole which mainly excites room modes in one axis with a box that will excite them in three.
What bass there is from an electrostatic sounds much cleaner and 'quicker' than from most box/cone derived bass because bass cancellation occurs vertically and laterally which reduces the contribution in the room's modal range, relative to the direct output.
The ratio of direct to reflected/stored energy is skewed to favour the former with a large panel radiator.
 
Another interesting article. Thanks Daytona.

I don't understand how a TL can have good transient response though. By Sanders own explanation the LF output through the pipe is delayed by the damping material and added to the front cone output.

Surely then it must be added one cycle after the front output and it can only match perfectly in phase on one particular frequency?

That's my impression of poor transient response.
 
YNWOAN said:
Unfortunately, it's notoriously difficult to match a sub to the Quad's. Part of this is because of the relative speed of the electrostatic membrane, but matching the dipole radiation pattern to the monopole radiation of most subs is as much (if not more) of an issue. Of course dipole subs do exist, but I haven't been very impressed with the ones I have heard.
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My experience is the same, and my hypothesis is the same as yours. Initially electrostatic / monopole sub systems can sound very good indeed, but only as you live with them do you realise something is wrong.

Nic P
 
sanders use a external digital crossover programmed for the speakers
digital delay for the ESL panel to time align with the TL bass section , remote control & Pc
interface either factory set or with the supplied remote/Pc to tune to room acoustics
adjustable slopes for the crossovers 6-48dB etc etc etc
94dB Efficency so work with SET amps , but laugh out loud with the matching power amps
Truly staggering bass on these things into subsonics. I currently Bi-amp them 1,800wpc
 
I run 3 X 8" drivers per side. They reach Xmax at ~5A so 15A peak is all that's needed per side. 15A into 1.9 Ohms = 430W peak. Even during a seriously loud session my bass amps barely get warm and the drive units rarely use more than about 1/2 their Xmax.

-3dB is currently set at 20Hz (I really ought to get around to trying the settings down to 10Hz) and transient response it at least twice as good as a sealed box.

The thing that really surprises me is that ~98% of the bass character comes from the speakers doing >100Hz.
 
I agree the greatest challenge with a sub is avoiding it messing up the rest of the sound. This is especially true when your main speakers do bass the way you like it, as with ESLs for example.
Darren
 
Agree with everything that's been said about the difficulties. In addition you need subwoofers with very low distortion which is sadly very rare.

Typical domestic subs give cut off frequencies with no reference whatsoever to distortion components at or near those points. Very misleading for use with a high quality music system.
 
Nic P said:
My experience is the same, and my hypothesis is the same as yours. Initially electrostatic / monopole sub systems can sound very good indeed, but only as you live with them do you realise something is wrong.

Nic P
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Hmmm ! Whereas I keep an open mind based upon ignorance :), this observation, and that of Ynwoan, rings a distant alarm bell.

After all, my experiment with panel speakers is but weeks old, and I've some way to go to get the full measure of the 2905s. Previous monoliths remain in porch ....just in case......

A friend is bringing round a pair of smaller RELs for me to play with, so I should at least get a handle on compatibility after a bit of tweaking.

I'm quite gratified that this interesting thread has emanated from my o.p., however.
 
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