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Streaming Hardware/Software Options, Questions, Solutions

DimitryZ

DimitryZ

pfm Member
I am new to the world of online streaming, trying to setup an inexpensive Tidal/MQA, Spotify and Qobuz platform. S2 Digital is the current MQA DAC. Currently using noname W10 Tablet with LPS to S2D/LPS to all Emotiva amplification and Eminent Technology 8B planars/Velodyne subs.

Curious to learn advantages and disadvantages of hardware streamers and software solutions, like Roon and LMS.
 
As I understand from your other posts, you have no need for CD ripping or local storage. That simplifies matters a bit, though the addition of MQA does complicate them.

Software: you can run all or most of your streaming through one app or one set of related apps. LMS (Logitech Media Server, a.k.a. Squeezebox Server) will stream everything you mentioned above except the MQA portion of Tidal, and would probably be the least expensive way to start as the app is free, some tablet control apps are free, and most of the hardware is inexpensive. Roon and Audirvana will stream Tidal in MQA, but not Qobuz or Spotify as far as I know, and they are not free.

Hardware: If you did not require MQA, I'd recommend trying a used Squeezebox Touch (which has LMS built in), at least to start with. For the software that currently supports MQA, you're usually talking about running something on a server (placed where you'd otherwise put a streamer, or remote and communicating with a separate streamer like a microRendu). I'm sure many here will chime in to support DIY or pre-built server/endpoint solutions based on Rasberry Pi, Vortexbox, Intel NUC, and others. Moving higher in cost, there are also proprietary streamers available from Naim, Auralic, and others that support Tidal and MQA but won't support all of the other services you mentioned. Some of the above include internal DACs, but all would connect to your external DAC as well.

That is the shortest summary I could muster. Elsewhere you mentioned you also have Apple Music. That one is generally not supported outside of Apple apps, and expands this discussion. Questions? I'm sure we're all ready to go in whatever direction you wish with this.
 
https://www.whathifi.com/advice/mqa-audio-what-it-how-can-you-get-it

MQA needs considerations as the link above can help. If your laptop has a reasonable processor then the Tidal app could decode MQA files once you sign up to that service. Otherwise another box is needed as the link explains.

It seems you only need online streaming services, so it is only necessary to download and run the various apps (Tidal, Quboz, Spotify) from the app store for your tablet. That is the simplest thing to do. Ok you manually switch around the apps as you wish - not sure you would need all of the services.

I am assuming that the S2Dac is cabled to the tablet (USB?).
 
@JensenHealey missing from his initial post here is that his current setup is a tablet and a laptop on a shelf above a stereo system. So the requirements include remote control as well as better streaming performance.
 
I had an early network player - Pioneer N50, which I got only for internet radio. Oppo BDP I owned had a built-in Tidal app that I could control from my tablet or phone, which made it a streamer as well..UDP-205 that came afterwards was purchased with an idea that it would support MQA, which they do now, but only for file playback. Since Oppo is getting out of audio business, it is unlikely they will support additional features. Their TS also told me their xmos solution did not lend itself to full MQA decoding through USB.

So my option are to stick with some form of W10 or Mac computer or use a proprietary streamer that would either have built-in MQA DAC or output an MQA stream to S2D.

I can control my tablet with an android screen...but if there is an inexpensive streamer device that would have better audio performance, I certainly would be interested. My sense is the good ones are expensive and are angled at the well heeled with multi room needs. One benefit, I guess would be to put it close to the router and use Ethernet. All of my tablets seem spotty for wifi streaming - often there are interruptions in Tidal, like it can't get enough band, but speed check numbers say otherwise.

Is there a way to upload a system photo to this message or is it always done with external image hosting and an URL link?
 
DimitryZ said:
Is there a way to upload a system photo to this message or is it always done with external image hosting and an URL link?
Click to expand...

The latter, all external.

My streaming hardware costs have been kept down by not worrying about MQA until it takes over the world. Mostly Squeezeboxes here.

Qobuz Sublime+ is not cheap, but their Hi-Res tracks sound just as good as the best MQA, and they offer 1,000,000 of those vs. Tidal's 100,000 Masters tracks.
 
They give out prices in pounds, but it's like $500/year. At that price, I don't see that part of the business as thriving...

Is their catalog as full as the main streaming services? I need access to current jazz and blues releases. Do musicians sign up with an exclusive streaming service or do they appear on all of them? I don't understand how that part of the music business works now. I do see most of the same albums appearing on both Tidal and Spotify, though they sound better on Tidal, even with the best Spotify subscription.

In direct 2L comparison through Brooklyn I found that MQA sounds as good but different than original hires masters...within the level of preference.
 
I have Qobuz Sublime, that gives reductions on bought downloads, which is nice, because although they say it's only on the Hires content, nothing stops you from buying hires, and then downloading CD quality.

So why would I do that? Because I think hires is bullshit, a total waste of time, and energy. CD quality is more than adequate.

Just for the craigh, prompted by this thread, I decided to wake up the Chromecast HDMI I have plugged into the Oppo 203.

For the moment it's working a treat, with Qobuz casting from my phone to the CC HDMI.
 
left channel said:
@JensenHealey missing from his initial post here is that his current setup is a tablet and a laptop on a shelf above a stereo system. So the requirements include remote control as well as better streaming performance.
Click to expand...

I do not see a laptop listed as part of the setup? "No name W10 tablet/ LPS" (bit odd, but that is what OP quoted)
 
I think IPad Air was interpreted as MacBook Air...it is only IOS, though if a MacBook is a better choice than a Chuwi W10 tablet (yes I bought it partially because of the crazy name and partially because it has two full size USBs) I could get a MacBook.
 
Bit of a DIY solution, but anyone with a MQA DAC cabable of full unfolding tried using a PI running KODI and the Tidal add-on with full passthrough enabled?
 
DimitryZ said:
They give out prices in pounds, but it's like $500/year. At that price, I don't see that part of the business as thriving...

Is their catalog as full as the main streaming services? I need access to current jazz and blues releases. Do musicians sign up with an exclusive streaming service or do they appear on all of them? I don't understand how that part of the music business works now. I do see most of the same albums appearing on both Tidal and Spotify, though they sound better on Tidal, even with the best Spotify subscription.
Click to expand...

Not trying to sell you on Qobuz, but yes they have a very full catalog and many find it superior to Tidal in Classical and Jazz. Probably Blues as well. Musicians seldom do exclusives with streaming services; they want to be on all of them. Availability is more often affected by their labels' national/regional licensing agreements. A special release by Taylor Swift or U2 on only one service is the exception that proves the rule. And that goes double for Jay-Z premiering his own music on his own service, Tidal.

As for their business model, all I'll say is that all the streaming services are losing money "chasing ears" (as doomed dot-coms chased eyeballs back in the day), and Qobuz is the only one that is projecting profitability within a few years. Since a bankruptcy and reorganization under new ownership, they have maintained a very narrow focus and specific goals, expanding slowly and offering multiple clearly defined tiers, one being a high-priced service for audiophiles willing to pay for top quality.

DimitryZ said:
In direct 2L comparison through Brooklyn I found that MQA sounds as good but different than original hires masters...within the level of preference.
Click to expand...

The sound of an MQA or Hi-Res track is heavily dependent on the original. There has been a longstanding controversy about labels often not providing clear information about the "provenance" of a Hi-Res release, and this issue has grown exponentially with MQA.

I find it very frustrating to find multiple copies of the same album available in MQA at 96 or 192 kHz resolution, with no explanation. The same album often sounds very different, and with no liner notes or other documentation a lot of research is required to figure out what happened. For example, one is from the original master for the first release, and another is from a remix made decades later that more emphasizes bass frequencies but is still called a "Master" because the copyright holder signed off on it. Meridian/MQA are not doing themselves a favor being so opaque, and I've stopped seeking out MQA tracks.

Hi-Res has its own problems, like "watermarking", which adds background noise or distortion to streaming and radio broadcasts for copy protection purposes. I have not heard this in music I normally listen to. Watermarking is not necessary to protect distribution of MQA tracks, as they contain their own internal data scheme which has caused many to speculate about a vast DRM conspiracy. Both of these copy protection issues are the subject of very long and rancorous threads on all or most audio forums.
 
Peter Stockwell said:
I think hires is bullshit, a total waste of time, and energy. CD quality is more than adequate.
Click to expand...

If you don't hear a difference, I envy you and your happier wallet.

A recent study has shown that many listeners cannot even hear the difference between 320kbps MP3 and 16/44.1 CD tracks. However more of them were able to hear a difference between those two types and 24/192 Hi-Res tracks. Without being told which type they were listening to, some heard the Hi-Res difference rationally and scientifically, while others reported an emotional response they could not explain.

When I cannot hear a difference, I and my wallet are happy to purchase the lower-resolution copy. But I often do hear and feel a difference, and I suspect the reason I sometimes cannot is related to the provenance issue I mentioned in my previous post. In those cases in particular, your well-chosen adjective is indeed appropriate.
 
JensenHealey said:
I do not see a laptop listed as part of the setup? "No name W10 tablet/ LPS" (bit odd, but that is what OP quoted)
Click to expand...

DimitryZ said:
I think IPad Air was interpreted as MacBook Air...it is only IOS, though if a MacBook is a better choice than a Chuwi W10 tablet (yes I bought it partially because of the crazy name and partially because it has two full size USBs) I could get a MacBook.
Click to expand...

OK, yes, I was misinterpreting "Air". In the audiophile world, tablets are for remote control, not for transporting the music. And Wi-Fi is often the cause of delays, dropouts, and degradation. (And yes, alliteration. ;—)

However, just as an experiment without spending any money, I suggest you download and install the free Logitech Media Server software on your Wi-Fi Windows 10 tablet, then go into Settings and install plugins for your streaming services and other features. You will be able to control it directly or via a web browser on any desktop, tablet, or phone on the same Wi-Fi network. Later you can look into iOS apps and consider upgrading your hardware for this or other software. First you need to get a taste of what owning a streamer is like.

Many here and on the Squeezebox forum can help you. LMS, Roon, Audirvana, and any others we've mentioned to you all take time to get to know and set up, but each has a large online community willing to help.
 
left channel said:
If you don't hear a difference, I envy you and your happier wallet.

A recent study has shown that many listeners cannot even hear the difference between 320kbps MP3 and 16/44.1 CD tracks. However more of them were able to hear a difference between those two types and 24/192 Hi-Res tracks. Without being told which type they were listening to, some heard the Hi-Res difference rationally and scientifically, while others reported an emotional response they could not explain.
Click to expand...

I think recording/mastering quality count more than the bit rate of the "stream", and I think it is how the dac deals with the stream that counts.

I have dabbled with hires recordings over the years, and I have yet to be impressed. Maybe too little exposure, or maybe crap hearing. But I can hear how more "there" vinyl can sound over digital.

I hear differences between digital cables, too.
 
OK, it's beginning to make sense now...I visited this world a little bit a few years back and walked away at that time.

So, does the control software allow for a better interface and more in depth searching of the Tidal catalog, for example? Can I search on recording label or MQA and get large album lists to choose from?

Hardware-wise, the most cost effective modern solution would appear to be a Bluesound Node 2, which is MQA-certified. Using it would ostensibly remove the USB interface from the equation, which should offer audible benefits?

I remember now that I got "ready" for hires streaming a couple of years back, when there was a strong rumor that Apple will add a hires streaming option. Since Apple is all device-centered I got an Ipad Air as this was supposed to be the hardware platform that would be used. When that didn't happen, but Tidal begun to stream MQA, I naturally just added a Tidal capable low cost hardware platform - windows tablet to sit alongside the Ipad Air.

So now it works, but I am quite frustrated with the Tidal interface and incomplete/wrong MQA tagging/listing. For example, some of the MQA titles listed in the large Excel list do not show up now in Tidal as MQA albums...

Better MQA titles allow an in-depth listen to the recording or concert mix, while retaining the human aspects of music making. It is currently the best sounding music source, on equal par with best SACDs and LPs.
 
DimitryZ said:
OK, it's beginning to make sense now...I visited this world a little bit a few years back and walked away at that time.

So, does the control software allow for a better interface and more in depth searching of the Tidal catalog, for example? Can I search on recording label or MQA and get large album lists to choose from?
Click to expand...

Each third-party control app is different, not necessarily better. They are all dependent on the Tidal's own organization and indexing. You'll see the same menu categories, just laid out differently, some more text content, some with less.

The searches you mention are often unsatisfying in the Tidal app, and they are no less so in any third-party app I've tried. Roon does add more of their own version of what I like to call "21st-century liner notes" than the others, but they too are dependent on Tidal for search indexing.

DimitryZ said:
Hardware-wise, the most cost effective modern solution would appear to be a Bluesound Node 2, which is MQA-certified. Using it would ostensibly remove the USB interface from the equation, which should offer audible benefits?
Click to expand...

The Node 2 may indeed be the best turnkey solution for you, with all the options you'll need including MQA plus Wi-Fi and Ethernet connectivity. I see that they now support all the non-Apple streaming services you mentioned, so that may be all you need.

I went with something else because Bluesound hadn't yet partnered with all the services I wanted, and because I have streamers in several locations around the house so wanted most of them to be cheaper. Also the closed operating system was a turnoff for me as I like to get geeky and tweaky sometimes, but for most people that is a selling point: it's plug-and-play.

You'd be controlling it with the BlueOS app, which as I said you may find no better or worse than Tidal. I don't know if it incorporates all of the Qobuz content and recommendations, but most of these apps do a fairly good job, and I've never used Spotify. If you later upgrade to a Roon system to control the Node 2, you'd have Roon content too.

DimitryZ said:
I remember now that I got "ready" for hires streaming a couple of years back, when there was a strong rumor that Apple will add a hires streaming option. Since Apple is all device-centered I got an Ipad Air as this was supposed to be the hardware platform that would be used. When that didn't happen, but Tidal begun to stream MQA, I naturally just added a Tidal capable low cost hardware platform - windows tablet to sit alongside the Ipad Air.

So now it works, but I am quite frustrated with the Tidal interface and incomplete/wrong MQA tagging/listing. For example, some of the MQA titles listed in the large Excel list do not show up now in Tidal as MQA albums...

Better MQA titles allow an in-depth listen to the recording or concert mix, while retaining the human aspects of music making. It is currently the best sounding music source, on equal par with best SACDs and LPs.
Click to expand...

Tidal's organization is atrocious for our purposes, but we must remember that their primary target market is young fans of Jay-Z and his friends. Audiophiles are a very small portion of their customer base. Qobuz treats audiophiles with a bit more respect, but we pay for that privilege to make up for our smaller numbers.
 
Node 2 seems like an attractive option, however:

1. PCM5122 is getting old...wonder if they will update the guts soon.
2. My location is probably locked to WiFi...node 2 is N, not AC, unless I am misinterpreting. Can add an AC Ethernet bridge.
3. I am not familiar with TI house sound...more used to latest Sabre DACs, for better or worse.
 
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