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Stereo receiver/amplifier advice

T

twotone

pfm Member
Hi guys, I recently bought a Yamaha Pro P2350 PA to have a play about with two different pairs of speakers but mainly to try to hear a pair of Elac BS 312 as I don't think I'm getting the best out of them with my 'normal' amp which is a Yamaha R-N803d receiver.

I set up the Yam PA amp with my streamer/Dac set up which is a 1 TB HDD>RPi3>Topping D10s>RCA inputs via VLR adaptors and used the volume control on my laptop/phone via the Volumio webpage and set the attenuators to around 25 with the volume control in Volumio at 100 the speakers sound fine, not much different from my receiver to be honest but I'm wondering if I can use my R-N803D into the Yamaha PA amp and control the volume with that or is that a waste of time?

There are no pre-outs on the 803D but there are two line-outs however I suspect they're only for the specific line outs @ 2 & 3, according to the manual line 3 is for a CD recorder etc and presumably so too is line 2 (tape deck or similar) so I'm thinking that I can't use those line outs to hear all the of the inputs on the amp via the PA amp?

There's a sub woofer out though I suspect I can't use that either?

I have my TT connected to the Line 1 as it has it's own phono preamp but there's also a MM phono stage which I'm not using and I have my Panasonic Freeview recorder hooked up to coax 1 for sound from the TV.

The Dac is just a USB dac with RCAs out to the N-803's CD inputs which I've been hooking up straight to the PA inputs then switching everything back to listen to DAB+ or FM radio or the TV.

I wouldn't mind keeping the Yamaha PA if I could use the N-803 inputs/volume control or just sell the two amps and buy something more suitable, I did consider buying a Blusound Node 2i to use with the Yam Pa amp but I'm not sure if that's just a sideways step as the N-803 is very convenient but I'm sure that the Elacs need a better amp than the 803-D.

BTW, the attenuators on the Yam PA are 00 to 0 so should I set them to 0 and set the Volumio volume to 100 then reduce that or do it the other way about?

Thanks for reading.

Tony
 
Line outputs are not attenuated. If you do not have a pre-out from the Yamaha, then you are out of luck using its volume control.

I don't know how good the N-803 is, but it supposedly has 100WPC into 8-ohms. To get something more powerful will require at least 200WPC, and that would get expensive if you want quality watts as well.
 
twotone said:
Hi guys, I recently bought a Yamaha Pro P2350 PA to have a play about with two different pairs of speakers but mainly to try to hear a pair of Elac BS 312 as I don't think I'm getting the best out of them with my 'normal' amp which is a Yamaha R-N803d receiver.

I set up the Yam PA amp with my streamer/Dac set up which is a 1 TB HDD>RPi3>Topping D10s>RCA inputs via VLR adaptors and used the volume control on my laptop/phone via the Volumio webpage and set the attenuators to around 25 with the volume control in Volumio at 100 the speakers sound fine, not much different from my receiver to be honest but I'm wondering if I can use my R-N803D into the Yamaha PA amp and control the volume with that or is that a waste of time?

There are no pre-outs on the 803D but there are two line-outs however I suspect they're only for the specific line outs @ 2 & 3, according to the manual line 3 is for a CD recorder etc and presumably so too is line 2 (tape deck or similar) so I'm thinking that I can't use those line outs to hear all the of the inputs on the amp via the PA amp?

There's a sub woofer out though I suspect I can't use that either?

I have my TT connected to the Line 1 as it has it's own phono preamp but there's also a MM phono stage which I'm not using and I have my Panasonic Freeview recorder hooked up to coax 1 for sound from the TV.

The Dac is just a USB dac with RCAs out to the N-803's CD inputs which I've been hooking up straight to the PA inputs then switching everything back to listen to DAB+ or FM radio or the TV.

I wouldn't mind keeping the Yamaha PA if I could use the N-803 inputs/volume control or just sell the two amps and buy something more suitable, I did consider buying a Blusound Node 2i to use with the Yam Pa amp but I'm not sure if that's just a sideways step as the N-803 is very convenient but I'm sure that the Elacs need a better amp than the 803-D.

BTW, the attenuators on the Yam PA are 00 to 0 so should I set them to 0 and set the Volumio volume to 100 then reduce that or do it the other way about?

Thanks for reading.

Tony
Click to expand...
It’s a shame they didn’t add pre-outs. Using the Maggies, it would have been nice to experiment with more current. It still sounds great.Lovely, in fact.And I really value the integrated services etc. Enjoying free Deezer Hifi at the moment. Adding a sub has really fleshed out the soundstage without sacrificing the lovely transparency of sound.
 
Del monaco said:
It’s a shame they didn’t add pre-outs. Using the Maggies, it would have been nice to experiment with more current. It still sounds great.Lovely, in fact.And I really value the integrated services etc. Enjoying free Deezer Hifi at the moment. Adding a sub has really fleshed out the soundstage without sacrificing the lovely transparency of sound.
Click to expand...

Thanks, yes the amp is excellent for a lot of things and super convenient which is why I don't want to move it on that and the fact to get something similar with the same features would cost probably about double the new price and I'm not prepared to spend that amount of money at the moment.

I definitely think the Elacs aren't suited to the Yamaha 803-D or indeed Yamaha amps in general as that amp sounds much the same but the speakers do appear to like more power up them.

The LS3/5as were fine but they're excellent speakers too but those are designed for near field and low volume listening the Elacs are more suited to higher volumes I think but I don't like listening at high volume.

I'm wondering if I I tried a passive pre or a 10/15k ohm volume control would help with the PA amp? I don't think that the Volumio volume control on the laptop/webpage is that great either.

Tony
 
Must be at least 24 hours since I last repeated this.... no speaker "likes more power" and nothing "needs more current". Not unless you are wanting such high volumes that you actually do need more power etc anyway.
This seems to be one of the most fundamental misunderstandings in hi fi judging by the way that not a day goes by without someone saying it!:)
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Must be at least 24 hours since I last repeated this.... no speaker "likes more power" and nothing "needs more current". Not unless you are wanting such high volumes that you actually do need more power etc anyway.
This seems to be one of the most fundamental misunderstandings in hi fi judging by the way that not a day goes by without someone saying it!:)
Click to expand...

Thanks Jez, yes I've read your multiple posts on the subject:D

Soooo, why do some speakers apparently need a more powerful amp to get them to sound at their best?

My speakers specs are below and the amp is rated at 100W X 2 @ 8 ohms with an output level/output impedance 200 MV/1.0 k ohms, the Yamaha PA amp is rated at 175w X 2 @ 8 ohms and with an input impedance of 15k ohms

Speaker type: 2-way, bass reflex
Tweeter: 1 x JET 5
Woofer: 1 x 115 mm AS -XR cone
Crossover frequency: 3,200 Hz
Frequency response: 42 to 50,000 Hz
Sensitivity: 87 dB at 2.83 v/1m
Recommended amplifier power: 50 to 150 wpc
Nominal/peak power handling: 70 / 100 wpc
Nominal impedance: 4 Ω; minimum 3.4 Ω @ 280 Hz
Binding posts: 5-way metal
Magnetic shielding: No
Cabinet finish: High gloss black or white
Accessories included: Metal grille
Height: 8.2 in / 208 mm
Width: 4.8 in / 123 mm
Depth: 11.1in / 282 mm
Net weight (each): 15.9 lb / 7.2 kg
 
twotone said:
Thanks Jez, yes I've read your multiple posts on the subject:D

Soooo, why do some speakers apparently need a more powerful amp to get them to sound at their best?

My speakers specs are below and the amp is rated at 100W X 2 @ 8 ohms with an output level/output impedance 200 MV/1.0 k ohms, the Yamaha PA amp is rated at 175w X 2 @ 8 ohms and with an input impedance of 15k ohms

Speaker type: 2-way, bass reflex
Tweeter: 1 x JET 5
Woofer: 1 x 115 mm AS -XR cone
Crossover frequency: 3,200 Hz
Frequency response: 42 to 50,000 Hz
Sensitivity: 87 dB at 2.83 v/1m
Recommended amplifier power: 50 to 150 wpc
Nominal/peak power handling: 70 / 100 wpc
Nominal impedance: 4 Ω; minimum 3.4 Ω @ 280 Hz
Binding posts: 5-way metal
Magnetic shielding: No
Cabinet finish: High gloss black or white
Accessories included: Metal grille
Height: 8.2 in / 208 mm
Width: 4.8 in / 123 mm
Depth: 11.1in / 282 mm
Net weight (each): 15.9 lb / 7.2 kg
Click to expand...


They don't!! They will sound better with a better amplifier... which may just happen to be more powerful than another amplifier with lesser sound quality... people then put 2 and 2 together and make 5.

There was a long thread just a week or two back in which people compared and discussed the volume they usually play at and it was shown by several people that the average fishie is probably using way less than 1W most of the time, more like 0.1W in fact... transient peaks up to say 3-5W for most people. Some were using low efficiency speakers as well! Your speakers are in fact quite low efficiency as the figure given in Volts corresponds to an 8 Ohm Watt hence they are in fact 84dB/W. You would need a reasonable amount of power if you like things pretty loud but you say above that you don't... Several people are using equally low efficiency speakers such as LS3/5A's with low power amps such as Leak Stereo 20 (10WPC) and Radford STA15 with great results and I currently use a 16WPC class A amp of my own design with my 87dB/W speakers and it sounds great. All the neighbours would have to be out and I would have to be in a bit of a headbanging mood to use the entire 32W of both channels through the pair of speakers.

There is no difference between 1W from a 10W amp and 1W from a 200W amp....

Why would the likes of Leak St20, various Radford models between 12 and 35W, Sugden A21A etc etc have such a good reputation if amplifiers needed to be say 100W to sound good at 1-2W?;)

As far as current goes well a speaker draws from the amplifier whatever current it needs to sustain a given voltage. So long as sufficient current is available then the required voltage will be delivered and the amp does not clip (until it runs out of volts). Having loads more current available makes no difference as the speaker only draws as much current as it needs.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
They don't!! They will sound better with a better amplifier... which may just happen to be more powerful than another amplifier with lesser sound quality... people then put 2 and 2 together and make 5.

There was a long thread just a week or two back in which people compared and discussed the volume they usually play at and it was shown by several people that the average fishie is probably using way less than 1W most of the time, more like 0.1W in fact... transient peaks up to say 3-5W for most people. Some were using low efficiency speakers as well! Your speakers are in fact quite low efficiency as the figure given in Volts corresponds to an 8 Ohm Watt hence they are in fact 84dB/W. You would need a reasonable amount of power if you like things pretty loud but you say above that you don't... Several people are using equally low efficiency speakers such as LS3/5A's with low power amps such as Leak Stereo 20 (10WPC) and Radford STA15 with great results and I currently use a 16WPC class A amp of my own design with my 87dB/W speakers and it sounds great. All the neighbours would have to be out and I would have to be in a bit of a headbanging mood to use the entire 32W of both channels through the pair of speakers.

There is no difference between 1W from a 10W amp and 1W from a 200W amp....

Why would the likes of Leak St20, various Radford models between 12 and 35W, Sugden A21A etc etc have such a good reputation if amplifiers needed to be say 100W to sound good at 1-2W?;)

As far as current goes well a speaker draws from the amplifier whatever current it needs to sustain a given voltage. So long as sufficient current is available then the required voltage will be delivered and the amp does not clip (until it runs out of volts). Having loads more current available makes no difference as the speaker only draws as much current as it needs.
Click to expand...

Thanks again Jez, would there be any point in trying a passive pre or a volume control in a box with the Yamaha PA amp or just bite the bullet and flog both amps and buy something more suitable for the speakers?

Actually I'm listening to Nils Lofgren Acoustic live (Flac) right now via the Yamaha 803d and it sounds pretty decent volume is 38 DB the streamer>DAC is connected to the amp's CD RCA inputs.

So basically a different amp 'might' make the speakers sound better?
 
twotone said:
Thanks again Jez, would there be any point in trying a passive pre or a volume control in a box with the Yamaha PA amp or just bite the bullet and flog both amps and buy something more suitable for the speakers?

Actually I'm listening to Nils Lofgren Acoustic live (Flac) right now via the Yamaha 803d and it sounds pretty decent volume is 38 DB the streamer>DAC is connected to the amp's CD RCA inputs.

So basically a different amp 'might' make the speakers sound better?
Click to expand...

You already have vol controls on the Yam pro amp! It only has balanced XLR and 1/4" jack inputs.

A better amp will sound better:rolleyes:

Pro PA amps are designed to give loads of power reliably without overheating and, as a huge generalisation, only have budget amp type sound quality.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
You already have vol controls on the Yam pro amp! It only has balanced XLR and 1/4" jack inputs.

A better amp will sound better:rolleyes:

Pro PA amps are designed to give loads of power reliably without overheating and, as a huge generalisation, only have budget amp type sound quality.
Click to expand...

Do you think that a Quad 303, or similar, would be a better match for the Elacs Jez?
 
We use pro audio amps at church in the pa system , they have noisy fans , not sure I would want them in a domestic setting
 
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