per-Sony-fied
Me in another jacket
Can't fathom it myself. I thought it was a well written and interesting explanation.
Standard subchassis vs Sole vs Keel.
- Thread starter kanwar
- Start date
Can't fathom it myself. I thought it was a well written and interesting explanation.
It appears only MVV has a problem with comprehension and grammar
I agree, but then again I suppose some will say I'm a little biased
John R
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
On the last LP12 I changed the chassis on, it was not possible to remove the chassis/bearing (bearing was a Cirkus) without removing the cross-brace. The hole in the cross-brace was too small to allow extraction of the bearing (though it could be unbolted from above). With the bearing fitted to the chassis, it is not possible to fit the chassis with the cross-brace fitted. I'm glad that this does not parallel your experience - but it is as I found.
Perhaps the hole in your cross-brace is a touch larger (which would seem like a good idea), or perhaps you are using the pre-Cirkus bearing and this fits through the hole; I don't know, it's a long time since I worked on a deck that didn't have the Cirkus bearing fitted.
____________________
The question regarding a setup jig was actually a precursor to an offer to lend you one if the answer was no (though, obviously, the question did not deserve a response).
Perhaps the hole in your cross-brace is a touch larger (which would seem like a good idea), or perhaps you are using the pre-Cirkus bearing and this fits through the hole; I don't know, it's a long time since I worked on a deck that didn't have the Cirkus bearing fitted.
____________________
The question regarding a setup jig was actually a precursor to an offer to lend you one if the answer was no (though, obviously, the question did not deserve a response).
It would appear from Kanwars own words in his post above that he did acually remove the cross brace.
John R
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
Oh, thanks John. I was actually thinking of the bit where he wrote "this doesn’t involve having to completely strip the deck down." By the time you have taken the cross-brace out there is only the motor and top-plate to remove - which I consider a pretty thorough strip down.
That's fine YNWOAN, I take your point. However, you may disagree but as far as I'm concerned, the top plate is one of the most critical components of the LP12 - in setting it just right along with the AC motor if top performance is your aim. I think most will agree? Which is why Chris H's torque setting method is spot on in my opinion.
Kanwar is doing just fine in my estimation and what a massive task to take on in just one day. He deserves a lot of credit for this and none of the petty slagging off from some on pfm which incidentally, does our forum no good at all!
John R.
Kanwar is doing just fine in my estimation and what a massive task to take on in just one day. He deserves a lot of credit for this and none of the petty slagging off from some on pfm which incidentally, does our forum no good at all!
John R.
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
Well, I certainly agree that it is pointless to remove any components that don't need to be removed - why would one choose to incur further variables (or make unnecessary work for oneself). I'm sure Kanwar does know what he is doing and I'm sure he has set the deck up to the same high standard each time.
John, I never said the top plate was unimportant - far from it, motor adjustment is also important - everything is important; I'm sure we all agree on these factors and I'm sure kanwar is well aware of them too - I agree, I'm sure he is doing fine.
My previous point relating to 'strip down' is entirely of a pedantic nature relating to semantics in the end. My idea of a 'strip down' doesn't necessarily involve taking apart every single component; I guess for others that is exactly what it means and anything less is just a more minor rebuild. Kanwar is clearly not an amateur, but my experience is that many amateurs feel less confident in dismantling their deck to this level.
Kanwar, sounds like you are doing great and all power to you - please don't think that I am making any criticism of your competence, skill or ability, I am not. Shame that you were only able to record to cassette though; not in terms of quality, just that it's not as easy to share as a digital file - D6C, good cassette deck though and may well capture the differences better than a digital file.
John, I never said the top plate was unimportant - far from it, motor adjustment is also important - everything is important; I'm sure we all agree on these factors and I'm sure kanwar is well aware of them too - I agree, I'm sure he is doing fine.
My previous point relating to 'strip down' is entirely of a pedantic nature relating to semantics in the end. My idea of a 'strip down' doesn't necessarily involve taking apart every single component; I guess for others that is exactly what it means and anything less is just a more minor rebuild. Kanwar is clearly not an amateur, but my experience is that many amateurs feel less confident in dismantling their deck to this level.
Kanwar, sounds like you are doing great and all power to you - please don't think that I am making any criticism of your competence, skill or ability, I am not. Shame that you were only able to record to cassette though; not in terms of quality, just that it's not as easy to share as a digital file - D6C, good cassette deck though and may well capture the differences better than a digital file.
Somebody asked what version Sole I used, it’s a MK V. Anyway:
installing the Keel was fairly straight forward, which is how it should be considering that the subchassis, arm board and arm collar are now all one. This was lent to me from the Linn dealer in Tübingen, southern Germany, by Mr Archim Viertal. I’m very grateful for his generosity and trust and a bit more about that later.
The Keel is a very neat looking piece of kit, like the Sole, but obviously different. I guess anything that’s had some thought plus work applied to it in comparison to the very crude, standard conveyor-belt job, is neat. But like I said at the beginning of this write up: I like the way my system sounds even with the standard subchassis, conveyor-belt job, besides you can’t see the thing anyway; except for the arm-board and arm-collar part of the Keel. Having said that, it’s not that I’m overly accident prone but I took special care while setting up the keel because my intention was to return this to Archim, no matter how good it sounded, without any cock ups or scratches on the arm-board and or arm-collar parts. If you work in hi-end retail then you’ll know that half a centimetres worth of indelible blemish renders the equipment as a ‘second’.
The set up and fine tuning was also quite straight forward with the Keel. Again, it should be. I mean: if you’re shelling out that kind of hard earned money for a LP12 upgrade and it needs even MORE work, experience, skill, time, patience and voodoo to install it then the sensible thing to do is buy a turntable with the hype attached and enjoy your tunes instead of sitting there worrying whether the sodding thing has been set up correctly.
It wasn’t obvious straight off with “Our Little Angel” that the Keel was doing a better job, there was something, maybe more bass to Costello’s voice, but it wasn’t night and day. Sometimes you reach that saturation point where you can’t really perceive the differences anymore and need a break. Or sometimes you hit saturation-song, where you need something fresh to hear what’s going on.
The instruments in Tannhäuser Akt 1, by Wagner were somewhat better defined. It wasn’t my LP but belonged to one of the guests, Kai. He, Kai sat there, eyes closed with a big grin and was really grooving along to what the Keel was doing with old Wagner. But for me it wasn’t really anything to write home about.
However, you know I said that “The Nearness of You” is one of those tracks that really doesn’t get any better? Well guess what? I could make out better what the Keel was doing with this track as opposed to the last two. The contrast between Ella and Louis’s voices was starker and the whole package – recording, had a freer ambiance to it. It was beautiful. ‘How much better’ it was, I’ll try and tackle that theme a bit later.
Swing to Bop is a crappy recording of a live jam session, I think, 1938-9, recorded with a single mic’. With the Keel it had more life to it. Regina, another guest, said that you could make out more of the different notes that the instruments were playing. For me there was more smoke and jazz in the room. I don’t think it was quite Kai’s cup of tea.
I was going to post some of the above last night but I got a bit pissed off with one of the derogatory remarks from one of the PF members. So instead I had a look in Youtube. And much to my delight I found Wahan Kaun Hai Tera by S.D. Burman. I said earlier that to an ‘outsider’ it could sound like somebody having a whinge in a funny language. If you take maybe 30 seconds time out and have a quick listen then maybe you’ll get a better idea of the following:
It has a very uplifting message, the unification of elements, mankind and destiny. My mum used to bore us shitless with this stuff when were kids. But with the Keel you could better hear the optimism in the old sage’s voice; it sounds less like a whinge and more of a celebration…if you know what I mean.
Write more later. K.
installing the Keel was fairly straight forward, which is how it should be considering that the subchassis, arm board and arm collar are now all one. This was lent to me from the Linn dealer in Tübingen, southern Germany, by Mr Archim Viertal. I’m very grateful for his generosity and trust and a bit more about that later.
The Keel is a very neat looking piece of kit, like the Sole, but obviously different. I guess anything that’s had some thought plus work applied to it in comparison to the very crude, standard conveyor-belt job, is neat. But like I said at the beginning of this write up: I like the way my system sounds even with the standard subchassis, conveyor-belt job, besides you can’t see the thing anyway; except for the arm-board and arm-collar part of the Keel. Having said that, it’s not that I’m overly accident prone but I took special care while setting up the keel because my intention was to return this to Archim, no matter how good it sounded, without any cock ups or scratches on the arm-board and or arm-collar parts. If you work in hi-end retail then you’ll know that half a centimetres worth of indelible blemish renders the equipment as a ‘second’.
The set up and fine tuning was also quite straight forward with the Keel. Again, it should be. I mean: if you’re shelling out that kind of hard earned money for a LP12 upgrade and it needs even MORE work, experience, skill, time, patience and voodoo to install it then the sensible thing to do is buy a turntable with the hype attached and enjoy your tunes instead of sitting there worrying whether the sodding thing has been set up correctly.
It wasn’t obvious straight off with “Our Little Angel” that the Keel was doing a better job, there was something, maybe more bass to Costello’s voice, but it wasn’t night and day. Sometimes you reach that saturation point where you can’t really perceive the differences anymore and need a break. Or sometimes you hit saturation-song, where you need something fresh to hear what’s going on.
The instruments in Tannhäuser Akt 1, by Wagner were somewhat better defined. It wasn’t my LP but belonged to one of the guests, Kai. He, Kai sat there, eyes closed with a big grin and was really grooving along to what the Keel was doing with old Wagner. But for me it wasn’t really anything to write home about.
However, you know I said that “The Nearness of You” is one of those tracks that really doesn’t get any better? Well guess what? I could make out better what the Keel was doing with this track as opposed to the last two. The contrast between Ella and Louis’s voices was starker and the whole package – recording, had a freer ambiance to it. It was beautiful. ‘How much better’ it was, I’ll try and tackle that theme a bit later.
Swing to Bop is a crappy recording of a live jam session, I think, 1938-9, recorded with a single mic’. With the Keel it had more life to it. Regina, another guest, said that you could make out more of the different notes that the instruments were playing. For me there was more smoke and jazz in the room. I don’t think it was quite Kai’s cup of tea.
I was going to post some of the above last night but I got a bit pissed off with one of the derogatory remarks from one of the PF members. So instead I had a look in Youtube. And much to my delight I found Wahan Kaun Hai Tera by S.D. Burman. I said earlier that to an ‘outsider’ it could sound like somebody having a whinge in a funny language. If you take maybe 30 seconds time out and have a quick listen then maybe you’ll get a better idea of the following:
It has a very uplifting message, the unification of elements, mankind and destiny. My mum used to bore us shitless with this stuff when were kids. But with the Keel you could better hear the optimism in the old sage’s voice; it sounds less like a whinge and more of a celebration…if you know what I mean.
Write more later. K.
John
Rack’em Up!
I'm guessing the Keel's not going back.
Guess I've known all along,(without actually having an opportunity to hear one) that the Keel must be a glorious upgrade for the LP12.
Let's be perfecly honest it's beautifully crafted and as such a credit to Linn, shame about the cost of it though. All of this appears to be borne out by Kanwar's excellent account of last Friday's challenge event.
I'm really happy that our affordable "Sole" sub-chassis (approx 6 times less costly) appears to have given a good account of itself in a head to head with the mighty Keel, which is great news to those looking for a low cost alternative.
John R.
Let's be perfecly honest it's beautifully crafted and as such a credit to Linn, shame about the cost of it though. All of this appears to be borne out by Kanwar's excellent account of last Friday's challenge event.
I'm really happy that our affordable "Sole" sub-chassis (approx 6 times less costly) appears to have given a good account of itself in a head to head with the mighty Keel, which is great news to those looking for a low cost alternative.
John R.
Dowser
Learning to bodge again..
Yep - my question too - live with the Sole and be happy, or spend the (lots!) extra on the Keel? As a prototype Sole owner I am interested (but would never pay for a Keel ).
Thanks for the write up - is good. A link to the Youtube piece would help though.
Richard
).Thanks for the write up - is good. A link to the Youtube piece would help though.
Richard
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
This?
Nice writeup kanwar, and credit for spending the time to do all the set-up.
It sounds like the Sole and the Keel are both worthwhile products at their respective price-points, so I guess everyone's happy?
Nice writeup kanwar, and credit for spending the time to do all the set-up.
It sounds like the Sole and the Keel are both worthwhile products at their respective price-points, so I guess everyone's happy?
Last edited by a moderator:
jackal2513
pfm Member
Are these subchassis all worth it ?
What sonic improvements do they actually deliver ?
The price of the Keel is a joke. I can only think you'd buy one if you have pots of money and nothing to do with it, or you are well under the Linn products kosh !
Surely the bake off told us that any old turntable will do and this and that mod is just taking it into another price dimension and 'tweaking' the sound rather than upgrading it ? I remember my LP!2/Ekos/troika being more than enough to generate hours and hours of listening ecstasy.. and that didn't even have the cirkus thingy.
What sonic improvements do they actually deliver ?
The price of the Keel is a joke. I can only think you'd buy one if you have pots of money and nothing to do with it, or you are well under the Linn products kosh !
Surely the bake off told us that any old turntable will do and this and that mod is just taking it into another price dimension and 'tweaking' the sound rather than upgrading it ? I remember my LP!2/Ekos/troika being more than enough to generate hours and hours of listening ecstasy.. and that didn't even have the cirkus thingy.
The Bottom Line
About a decade ago when I was working in high end in Stuttgart, retail and setting up decks, the Linn rep’ for that region informed me that the company would cease to invest anymore time and money on LP12 upgrades and instead concentrate all out on the CD medium. When the rumors that I had read on the internet about this Keel thing upgrade for the LP 12 founded to be true I was delighted and couldn’t wait. But when the price hit me, like a lot of folks, I was disappointed. I used to be suspicious of anything that didn’t have a Linn logo on it when it came to tampering with my turntable, apart from obviously cartridges, but I thought that there’s got to be an alternative. This is how I came across this forum. Like I said at the very beginning: I like the sound of my deck. I wouldn’t change anything on it, or in it, just for the sake of it.
The bottom line is that the Keel was better than the Sole which was better than the standard subchassis. But the interesting and important thing is that the Keel was better in the same way the Sole was over the standard. The Sole improved the sound while maintaining the character of the LP12. Derek Jenkins said to me that people moan about the cost of the Keel but don’t think anything about coughing out a shit load of money for moving coil cartridge. Good point. He also added that “the Keel is ****ing mind blowing!” I love our occasional Socratic chin wags. If the Keel is ‘mind blowing’ then the Sole is the Dog’s Bollocks, in my opinion (remember that: IMO). It’s a great improvement for very little out lay. Regina gave the Sole 5/10 and the Keel 8/10. You do the math. Whoever is reading this, if you had been here I’m sure you would have concluded differently. When I told Regina the price difference she was surprised. Not one of my guests could justify the cost of a Keel, but Archim Viertal has sold loads, (I forgot to ask him how many when I returned the Keel but I’ll find out for you). Having said that those folks that bought the Keel hadn’t heard the Sole. And having said that, the Germans will only purchase expensive BMW parts for their BMW cars. Talking of Archim, I must add the following:
Ich möchte mich bei Archim Viertal von www.hifiviertal.de für seine Großzügigkeit und sein Vertrauen bedanken. Er Lieh mir das Keel aus: „Danke, mein Freund!“
P.S.: Schauen Sie mal nach Der „Time Table“, dem LP12 Tisch auf Archim’s website.
Sorry about that, Archim’s English is worse than my German. I must add that when I asked Archim to check condition of the Keel, he refused and waved me off and said he trusted me. I was touched by that gesture.
Thanks also to John R for sending me the Sole and your patience. You’re not getting it back.
Remember folks the extent of the differences between the subchassis is up to you, I’ve made up my mind. When I can work out a way of digitising the recordings and posting them, I will do so, that is if you’re interested and if it’s worth it.
All the best.
About a decade ago when I was working in high end in Stuttgart, retail and setting up decks, the Linn rep’ for that region informed me that the company would cease to invest anymore time and money on LP12 upgrades and instead concentrate all out on the CD medium. When the rumors that I had read on the internet about this Keel thing upgrade for the LP 12 founded to be true I was delighted and couldn’t wait. But when the price hit me, like a lot of folks, I was disappointed. I used to be suspicious of anything that didn’t have a Linn logo on it when it came to tampering with my turntable, apart from obviously cartridges, but I thought that there’s got to be an alternative. This is how I came across this forum. Like I said at the very beginning: I like the sound of my deck. I wouldn’t change anything on it, or in it, just for the sake of it.
The bottom line is that the Keel was better than the Sole which was better than the standard subchassis. But the interesting and important thing is that the Keel was better in the same way the Sole was over the standard. The Sole improved the sound while maintaining the character of the LP12. Derek Jenkins said to me that people moan about the cost of the Keel but don’t think anything about coughing out a shit load of money for moving coil cartridge. Good point. He also added that “the Keel is ****ing mind blowing!” I love our occasional Socratic chin wags. If the Keel is ‘mind blowing’ then the Sole is the Dog’s Bollocks, in my opinion (remember that: IMO). It’s a great improvement for very little out lay. Regina gave the Sole 5/10 and the Keel 8/10. You do the math. Whoever is reading this, if you had been here I’m sure you would have concluded differently. When I told Regina the price difference she was surprised. Not one of my guests could justify the cost of a Keel, but Archim Viertal has sold loads, (I forgot to ask him how many when I returned the Keel but I’ll find out for you). Having said that those folks that bought the Keel hadn’t heard the Sole. And having said that, the Germans will only purchase expensive BMW parts for their BMW cars. Talking of Archim, I must add the following:
Ich möchte mich bei Archim Viertal von www.hifiviertal.de für seine Großzügigkeit und sein Vertrauen bedanken. Er Lieh mir das Keel aus: „Danke, mein Freund!“
P.S.: Schauen Sie mal nach Der „Time Table“, dem LP12 Tisch auf Archim’s website.
Sorry about that, Archim’s English is worse than my German. I must add that when I asked Archim to check condition of the Keel, he refused and waved me off and said he trusted me. I was touched by that gesture.
Thanks also to John R for sending me the Sole and your patience. You’re not getting it back.
Remember folks the extent of the differences between the subchassis is up to you, I’ve made up my mind. When I can work out a way of digitising the recordings and posting them, I will do so, that is if you’re interested and if it’s worth it.
All the best.
Well Kanwar excellent account and thanks for telling us about the differences - I am not surprised the Keel is top dog, but really chuffed that the Sole has proved it's a damn good affordable product.
That's a turn up for the books then John? The Keel's already gone back and the Sole's staying.
John R
Jo Sharp
Pulls on doors marked push
Can someone post the info here, or provide a link please?
..and how do I go about replacing my MK1 (I presume, as an early adopter) Sole for the MK5?
per-Sony-fied
Me in another jacket
Mk6 is on the horizon, I believe a retro fit-able upgrade to the Mk5 - thus called Mk6.
I also believe (I know) the Mk5 is a much more open & airy solution, losing the somewhat slow & heavy sound of the former by comparison.