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Stack Audio SERENE LP12 upgrades, an entirely subjective opinion

N

nobeone

Total Member
I spent a good chunk of yesterday afternoon playing a couple of records at Gulliford Hifi in Exeter listening to Stack Audio's SERENE LP12 upgrades.

Thanks to Theo Stack @StackAudio and Ian Phillips of Gulliford for the opportunity. In my opinion this is what a dealer can offer and what it should be all about: no hard sell; as much time and space as I wanted; my music; relaxed about me swapping decks myself; browsing their music; a cup of coffee; a chat on this, that, the other. Perhaps most importantly a chance to hear upgrades that otherwise you would have to buy on blind faith :)

I have a Naim Olive 72 (RSL boards) / Hicap / NAXO / 2x250 / SBLs at home, understandably Ian was not able to offer the same in the Gulliford demo room but he set me up with the Supernait 3, and a pair of Graham Audio LS6/f as a decent substitute, something I found I could quickly acclimatise to and get on with the business at hand - smart move Ian!

The front end comprised Theo's own decks, two LP12s, I could see they were both cross braced, one Afromosia, one black Ash, same Jelco arms, same Ortofon 2M Bronze, and I understand they were both Cirkus and Valhalla - modest enough but the sort of decks many folk may well be considering upgrading from. Apologies to Theo if I have any of these details wrong. The black ash beast was then upgraded with the full SERENE kit: top plate, base board, cross brace, sub-chassis and arm board.

My LP12 is Cirkus era, cross braced, Mose Hercules II, ARO with AROmatic arm lift, and Dynavector DV-20X2 L, no further upgrades.

My first mistake was bringing Primal Scream - The Original Memphis Recordings (45 RPM) as a demo record, never mind I had a Rough Trade copy of The Smiths - Strangeways Here We Come (a pfm record shop purchase!) and Abbey Road half speed mastered Amy Winehouse - Back to Black to fall back on at 33 1/3, the Valhalla's strength ;)

I ran the standard deck for a while, Ian swapped to the SERENE deck, it was a clear difference, Ian checked I was happy and left me to it. I swapped back and forth a few more times to get in my head around what I felt the differences were, then just settled in to enjoying the SERENE.

So what did I think I heard? Well I was enjoying listening to a few tunes in a relaxed environment, giggling at firing the remote for the Supernait over my shoulder when I have no such (though RSL do the option!) luxury on my 72, realising how little I had moved from a classic c.1989 setup. It struck me the upgrades don't alter the nature of the LP12 sound, they just improve it. The bass seemed a bit tighter, it seemed like the bands were just playing together better, I noticed the string stretching opening to Death of a Disco Dancer was more solidly placed in the soundstage, then the intro bass line seemed more realistic, notes started and stopped more cleanly. Not a huge night and day difference, not a big change in character, but a collection of small improvements that just made it more engaging to listen to. Nice, Theo is to be congratulated, I think that is what most of us would hope for.

Sure those with Linn blood in their veins would be horrified at using non-Linn parts, but I am sorry, Linn and I parted our ways many years ago when Keel and Radical were launched and was/is always going to be out of my reach. I could perhaps countenance a Kore c.£800, but heck the complete SERENE package, is less than the cost of a Kore. I appreciate there are other vendors third party sub-chassis, top plates, base boards etc. but the Stack Audio is very keenly priced whichever way you look at. How they all compare is something perhaps others can help with, for me it is hard to ignore a likeable local company banging out a comparative bargain LP12 upgrade that really does improve on the standard parts. If you want a Linn logo on your arm board, this is not the upgrade for you. If you are not of that ilk and are contemplating a base board, or top plate, or sub-chassis upgrade I would think you should at least consider this demo.
 
Interesting, I've been looking at options myself for my second deck.
Slightly confusing is why the two comparison decks are still limited by using a Valhalla, not only for 45rpm but because it will really limit the deck and probably mask some of the other improvements.
Also your summary " Not a huge night and day difference, not a big change in character, but a collection of small improvements that just made it more engaging to listen to"
A Kore alone isn't a subtle improvement, while you also correctly note a Radikal is expensive it's a "bloody hell" type improvement, worth it in my view. Question is would say an Origin Live DC motor upgrade at much less give Radikal type performance?
Nice to read that things like top plates and bases etc are all helping to improve it.
 
I can't say how Kore compares, I have not experienced a similar demo for Kore.

I don't think the improvement was subtle, perhaps I am not flowery enough in my language, it was a clear difference, to me an improvement, I don't generally hear night and day differences, when I do I expect something is wrong :p

Yes I would have liked to have had an external PSU to listen to as I have just that, but there are so many flavours of LP12 out there, you would never keep all the punters happy with the demo whichever you choose. I suppose you could spin this both ways, you can even hear the difference on a modest set up, just imagine how huge it would be on a better system? Or indeed, you only heard a difference because the system was so modest, in a top flight system you would hear nothing significant.

A Radikal may well be a "bloody hell" moment but I'm not look to spend that sort of money, might consider a Mober as a DC upgrade from my Mose Hercules II though at substantially less outlay! Origin Live is another option, one from closer to home. The Radikal and Mober are close loop controlled as I understand it, while the Origin Live is open loop I believe?

I would put this in the same league of improvement as Naim 72 MC cards to RSL phono stage, cost about the same too. Are there cheaper ways to improve my system? Perhaps, open to suggestions, seems unlikely to me a Kore alone (which is the price point) would do as much, but that is idle speculation as I have not heard a Kore, idle speculation based on the expectation the SERENE sub-chassis arm board offer a not dissimilar improvement to a Kore.
 
Very interested in this. My thoughts is if I did go down the upgrade route I would either do the Linn Kore or explore the Stack audio route as they seem reasonable. Perhaps a Kore & a stack audio toplate would be a good option?
 
I have a Mober on my Kuzma Stabi S, it runs linn bearing and platters. It does deliver speed stability and quiet running at a fraction of the Radikal cost.

I've had various OL bits over the years, they couldn't hold speed from start to end of one side of a record. Unless they've gone tacho feedback controlled recently I wouldn't expect that to have changed.
 
Woodface said:
Very interested in this. My thoughts is if I did go down the upgrade route I would either do the Linn Kore or explore the Stack audio route as they seem reasonable. Perhaps a Kore & a stack audio toplate would be a good option?
Click to expand...
Could be, I guess I just feel the Kore price is similar to the complete SERENE package. Similarly thinking about a top plate, the entire SERENE package is similar a Khan top plate. It does look very good value but as I say I have not, and I don't see me being easily able to, compared otherwise identical decks with just the single variations. I was grateful to be able to do this comparison so close to home and in such comfort! All feedback from those lucky enough to compare similar items appreciated.
 
sq225917 said:
I have a Mober on my Kuzma Stabi S, it runs linn bearing and platters. It does deliver speed stability and quiet running at a fraction of the Radikal cost.

I've had various OL bits over the years, they couldn't hold speed from start to end of one side of a record. Unless they've gone tacho feedback controlled recently I wouldn't expect that to have changed.
Click to expand...
Thanks sq, yes that is what I recall reading elsewhere on the Origin Live, open loop speed variations.
 
Anyone have a link to this Mober supply, I read peoples commenting about it but my google searches didn't bring me to a seller or manufacture website. Thanks for the heads up on the OE, that's put me right off if it can't hold speed, rather go Lingo 4 in that case.
 
My LP12 is old, no new topplate either.
It runs with a Lingo1, Ekos1 & the Circus kit was my last Linn upgrade.
Then I installed a Sole subchassis & after that it was a different league to my mates ~2000 LP12.
Later chassis, Circus, Ekos SE..both the same cartridges played side by side.
The effect is nowhere near subtle, but rather such you silently start asking yourself if the old chassis-version is damaged.

The Sole subchassis by many is said to be same level as the Keel (haven't tried it myself, but I tend to believe that)
The Kore by plain economical logic has to be considerably worse than a Keel, otherwise there'd be no reason for anyone to buy a Keel at all.
In my opinion it has been an art in effort to get the Kore sound bad enough to make a gap in sq to still justify for people making the upgrade to Keel.

To me personally the Kore is quite a sarcastic IQ-test.

The Sole is less the Kore in prize, so to me that's a no-brainer.
I'm not here to advocate the Sole, I'm sure there is many good ones out there..or better ones than the old original at least.

I cannot judge those upgrades you have there, but from my impression the subchassis alone should put you into a different league soundwise,
not 3 upgrades at once and just 'a little better'.

I'm not aiming to paint negativity onto upgrades I do not know,,,but from your words it does not sound outright convincing to me.

And I'd try some other alternatives at home and do the subchassis only, for once.
Ask around, lend one or buy s/h..the right subchassis should really blow you away
& result in better than the 'little bit better' of the upgrades described.

Also, it has to be said that decent quality does cost a bit of money, and deservedly so.
I think a certain balance is the right way, not sure super-cheap is the answer.
But Keel performance for less than Kore money is already a great deal to me.
Analogue Innovation is also offering the Sole on a money-back-if-not-satisfied basis for trial, I think ?
 
Thanks @torstoi, I appreciate the suggestion of a Sole. I note a Sole is roughly the same price as a Kore, sure a little less, but same ballpark.

I am really glad you are pleased with your upgrade, sadly I think it is impossible to compare my "nice" upgrade with your "blow you away" in any real sense.

To put my words in context, little has ever "blown me away", so I would not read too much in to my lack of going verablly overboard on an upgrade. I generally get dissent on this forum for saying Avondale TPR4 upgrade to a Hicap sounds much like a Hicap, others rave that this was the biggest upgrade they ever made to their Naim system, so except for like for like comparisons I can't see how we can square the circle of your and my use of language to subjecively define the size of the upgrade until we hit on something we have both experienced in a similar context.

To me it was clearly audible, beneficial in various ways, a nice upgrade. So what can I compare it to that you might have experienced? Perhaps a bit more than going from a stock 72 to a 72 with RSL cards? About the same as replacing stock 72 MC cards with the RSL external phono stage? Perhaps something like going from passive 250 to active 250s driving SBLs? Unless you too have experienced any of these I am not sure we are really getting anywhere but I am trying to put a subjective experience in some context that may help others.

I appreciate there are other vendors out there and would really love to hear more from people that have compared some of them to the Stack Audio but since they are, I suppose, the new kid on the block, there does not seem to be much by way of comparison reviews around.

As to trying individual components at home, sorry, I can't (and don't want to!) compete with the likes of @anhammond who I admire for the lengths he is going to to compare upgrades. Happy for my dealer to set up my deck. :)
 
Hey I wish you all the best and have been enjoying your comparisons, keep it up, and I hope the Lingo 4 motor troubles get sorted.
 
Thanks for the link early to Mober, seems he does a lot LP12 mods, some heavy duty ones. Very tempted on the PSU for my second deck. The main deck has the Radikal.

The first mod I would suggest is the motor and PSU as good as possible. Remove one of the biggest issues at source, motor vibration. Then you can go around stiffening every thing up with bits of machined aluminium.

I don’t see the Kore as a cynical attempt of chassis, it’s still a folded and bonded box section and attached arm board.
I did the demo Kore vs the Keel, for me the Kore did a lot of the musical tuneful abilities of the Keel, all it really lost out on was the pyrotechnics the Keel could offer up. The Keel could be a bit more dynamic and hit a bit harder, but the Kore still in a similar way was able to make much more sense of the music with less muddle than the Cirkus chassis.
The Keel I think still is the only one piece design with integrated arm collar, that’s a lot material to machine off and bin. (Dealer offered me a nice price on an ex dem Keel so I bought it, otherwise I would have bought a Kore)
 
I don't disagree that there is sense in reducing unwanted vibrations, I think that is were the SERENE comes in though, it isn't just stiffer, the components are composite layers that include a damping material. I first realised this when I handled a base, tapped it, and found it did not ring. For example, from the www site:

"Stack Audio LP12 Top Plates are designed to be rigid and stable whilst dissipating vibration. They are a dual layer construction with a laminate of AVDC and are precision cut to fit flush to the plinth. "

Who else is doing this? I don't know but it seemed to me others are e.g. machining from solid blocks. Is there an advantage here? Could be, I'm not a materials scientist or mechanical engineer but we have some on the forum ...
 
@ nobeone: Well yes, the upgrade of a HiCap with TPR4 from Avondale would aim in the same league of a difference it makes in my view.
If you think that sounds about the same as a HiCap then you're loosing me at that point..

My Linn dealer probably wouldn't touch a Sole with a pliers even let alone install one, so if you're not prepared to do it yourself and want it done at the dealer, you'll probably have to take what he has in store.

I watched your upgrades on pictures bc I was curious how they roughly looked like or if I could guess the material.
I saw a baseplate upgrade there, which to me is another funny marketing thing only Linn first could come up with.

The original old baseplate was prone to catching resonances from bass frequencys mainly, the same as the lid does.
So I simply left the baseplate off, problem solved.
Linn offered an improved baseplate that catches less resonance or deals better with it.
To my logic it still has to catch more resonance than no baseplate at all, but at least it was expensive
considering it improved something that wasn't necessary in the first place entirely alltogether.

The Mober is certainly not a bad idea & something I might be interested in checking out at some point.
I have the Lingo1 and considering it's speed stability is basicly rather good already, I cannot guess what or how much a Lingo1 to Mober would do in comparison to old steel subchassis to Keel or similar.
I'd be suprised if the effect would be anywhere near what my subchassis did,
but then I don't know.
Hard to imagine for me, but not impossible...maybe Simon (sq) could give an idea about this, I think he tried Lingo vs. Mober at some point..?
 
There has been debate in the past about making things that don’t “ring” that can cause the deck to sound “dead”
I believe Linn’s approach was to tune the resonance of the Keel to a point where it didn’t sound dead or resonate and cause its own problems.

I don’t suppose there are speed issues with a Lingo 1, but that’s not the point of a Radikal, which when I upgrade from a Lingo 2 was significant upgrade, more than a Keel, it will be greatly reduce motor vibrations.

A base plate would have been a legal requirement to cover live electrical connections. So no chance for Linn to leave it off, so there was a problem to solve.
 
@torstoi Oh there are lots of ex-Linn dealers well prepared to provide their many decades of experience of LP12s but take advantage of third party parts now they are free of the bonds of Linn. Yes I am saying TPR4 sounds like a Hicap, same sound signature, but if you believe it is a big improvement, let me say the SERENE is an order of magnitude bigger improvement than the TPR4 :p

@9designs I think the purpose of the Radikal is speed stability and a quieter motor, from the Linn www site:

"Radikal brings together several breakthrough technologies that enable a completely new and innovative approach to motor control in the LP12, significantly improving its performance. To ensure perfect timing, Radikal’s speed management system auto-calibrates the motor every time the Sondek LP12 is powered on.

With radically reduced electromagnetic noise levels, the precious-metal brushed DC motor delivers a huge improvement in signal-to-noise ratio, getting you even closer to the music."

I read that as better speed control, and quieter.

I agree leaving the base off is one way to deal with an issue, the other is to make it damped like the SERENE. If you need a base for safety (and I do) then a damped one is a Good Idea (TM).
 
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