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Speaker placement using calculators.. Cardas, KEF..

Rug Doc

pfm Member
I have a listening room size 7340 x 3940cm, with speakers on the short wall firing down the room.. sofa is about 2/3 of the room back and I have always had the speakers reasonably close to the rear wall, say 1.5 ft away, and often thought that the system sounded better as I neared the speakers (as the sofa is way too far back for an equalateral triangle) so today I thought I’d try a calculator to see where they recommend speaker positioning..

I can’t quite believe how far into the room they say they should be..!

the speakers are now 79cm from the sidewalls (acceptable and looks okay) but the distance from the back of the cabinet is 147cm, yes 1.5m away from the back wall and frankly, it looks a bit ridiculous…

BUT if it works, I’ll mark the spot on the floor and get the speakers on some castors so I can roll em out (separate thread for solid castor recommendations coming up!)

So, does anyone actually use these measurements for speaker placement? Yes the image is spot on, the whole wall is now a speaker and it sounds bloody amazing, but I wondered who else actually uses these measurements??

http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_calculators.php

If you’ve never done it - go give it a go - I’ve never had a better soundstage, BUT it feels like the speakers are in the middle of the room (not in the slightest bit wife acceptable!)

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I can walk behind the speakers quite easily..!

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Won't the speaker placement depend on the speaker? It's telling me to put my JR149s 6 feet away from the rear wall, which doesn't sound right to me.
 
For me the side wall it gives is within 5cm of where I have them, but the recco 1.78m from the back wall would have them about level with my seat. They're currently 25cm from the back wall.
 
Won't the speaker placement depend on the speaker? It's telling me to put my JR149s 6 feet away from the rear wall, which doesn't sound right to me.

it’s using a mathematical equation related to frequency, the ears perception to them and first reflections.

And the yamahas are intended to be used against the wall....

against the rear wall the soundstage is flat and boring.
 
I tried this years ago and agree that it can work very well, for soundstaging on particular. I got good results even with small speakers meant to be placed close to the wall.

Disregarding the obviously smaller scale I found it similar in effect to near field listening, only more comfortable as the sweet spot wasn’t as narrow. Also, I felt the speakers could take higher volumes.
 
Ok
For me the side wall it gives is within 5cm of where I have them, but the recco 1.78m from the back wall would have them about level with my seat. They're currently 25cm from the back wall.

Thanks for taking part.. so working backwards you must have a 4m wide rear wall, so the suggestion is 1.78m m from that wall… seems excessive no?! What’s your other wall dimension??

OK, it’s bung. I just imagined swapping walls and having the speakers on the long wall, 7.9m and it puts the speakers 3.5m into the room…. It’s only 3.9 m in total..!

I’m either using the wrong calculator, or it’s rubbish.
 
Problem is as you say the setup takes up a lot of space: for this reason I reverted to the usual positioning. It really needs a dedicated listening room.
 
You could of course acoustically measure with REW move the speakers ( don’t move the microphone) re-measure compare etc etc.
Keith
 
You could of course acoustically measure with REW move the speakers ( don’t move the microphone) re-measure compare etc etc.
Keith

yes I’ll get the mic out tomorrow and see what’s going on. I’m at the stage where I want to get the room treated if necessary.
 
The Cardas calculator in the link doesn’t make any sense to me. There’s no advice on where to sit, and it doesn’t take into account the length of the room. Having said that, being lucky enough to have a relatively large room, I’ve always liked my speakers 1.5m or more away from the wall behind them, about 2m apart, and with me the same distance away, they are big headphones really. Massive sound stage, utterly solid image, smooth balance. Mrs likes music so is not an issue. Defo put your speakers on castors - maybe make a little platform with castors underneath - and your chair too, and move everything around till it all locks in.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_...0.l1311&_nkw=heavy+duty+castors+50mm&_sacat=0
 
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Interesting this, as I looked at the Cardas measurements last week.

I have a room approx 5m by 4 m and use them on the long wall in front of a rectangular Edwardian bay.

I have KEF Reference 3.2's which were about 1.1m in front of the bay but close to the main walls.

The main room was being replastered so I moved my KEF LS50's in to the room and decided to try them out in my main system.

I plonked them about 10 cm in front of the References and was astounded. The bass was huge even though they resemble Tom Thumb, bigger treble and massive soundstage.

Cardas told me I should have the front of the speakers about 0.845m out from the walls. I have moved them to 0.7m so far and they sound better but don't look so comfortable in the room.

To the opposite wall it is now about 3.4m so my head is about 3.2 metres away and I worry about the bass wavelength. Speakers are 1.9m apart.

The soundstage is improved but not as good as the little KEF's. They were 0.6m from the front and the midrange seemed recessed. I may try and pull them further in.

I wish I understood all this room interaction better. I am convinced that configuration is more important than the quality of the kit.
 
Thanks Andy, yes you’ve set that up for very near field listening and it’s a superb way to listen, it does indeed feel like a pair of huge headphones.. I have a very similar setup at my desk and love it.

This setup is in a family lounge, and I can’t have them 1.5m from the wall, but yes I will be getting some castors!! Can shahinian owners please tell me which type they use??
 
Another interesting post from PS Audio, who advocates the rule of thirds, so in my room 7.9m, the speakers 2.63 m from the wall behind them, and the listening position 2.6m from the opposite wall..

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/rule-thirds/

This sort of positioning is imo very difficult in the average lounge - a listening room is really required.. I have just worked out that the attached double garage is about right. Jesus.
 
You either need your speakers very close to the front wall or pulled well away from it if you want to avoid dips in the bass response caused by SBIR. The latter is often difficult/impractical if you have a small room. My speakers are currently located very close to my room corners, spaced wide apart and toed-in to the listening seat, this produces the best measured bass response below 150Hz but imaging/soundstage suffers compared to when the speakers are clear of boundaries, closer together and don't have a hifi rack, TV and (currently unused) subwoofers in between them!

I'm going to be controversial here but, having just sat through three 90min webinars by Anthony Grimani on getting the best bass in your home theatre, I'm coming around to the idea that the only way to "have your cake and eat it" and be able to place your conventional, box stereo speakers in the position where they image best without compromising on the in-room bass response of your system is to divert the bass to a swarm of four or more subs running in mono that are distributed around the room and cross them over at the frequency where your modal issues begin to dominate.
 
Paul at PS sound recommends the same thing… get the upper transducers in the right place and then add subs in the best position..

Any Infinity IRS systems popping up in the classifieds soon??!
 
You either need your speakers very close to the front wall or pulled well away from it if you want to avoid dips in the bass response caused by SBIR. The latter is often difficult/impractical if you have a small room. My speakers are currently located very close to my room corners, spaced wide apart and toed-in to the listening seat, this produces the best measured bass response below 150Hz but imaging/soundstage suffers compared to when the speakers are clear of boundaries, closer together and don't have a hifi rack, TV and (currently unused) subwoofers in between them!

I'm going to be controversial here but, having just sat through three 90min webinars by Anthony Grimani on getting the best bass in your home theatre, I'm coming around to the idea that the only way to "have your cake and eat it" and be able to place your conventional, box stereo speakers in the position where they image best without compromising on the in-room bass response of your system is to divert the bass to a swarm of four or more subs running in mono that are distributed around the room and cross them over at the frequency where your modal issues begin to dominate.
Yeah that was a good watch wasn't it. It helped me get a better result so far. Once the new custom stands for my mains arrive i plan on doing an optimization for the crossover between the crossover and placement with rew and mso(multi sub optimizer). You can then load that into a minidsp when choosing custom. Supposedly works with two subs already but i have been thinking about adding a third, a 4th one is not practical here.
 
@Rug Doc. It's rubbish as it doesn't take into account the room size or seating position just the first reflection point based on width. It's better than nothing I suppose and aligns with my own side wall distance very closely. But my room is 3m deep and I have to sit 1m from the back wall.

My speakers are toed in 22 degrees and cross behind me. Its the best I can do in this room.
 


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