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Small speakers and severe toe-in

Discussion in 'audio' started by Alex S, Sep 22, 2022.

  1. omers

    omers pfm Member

    So a different type of passive (yours is resistors, vs transformers)...

    Could it be a trait of the Sugden?
  2. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Interesting. The one thing a passive can’t add is any distortion. It is inherently clean with effectively unlimited headroom. The ironic thing is when they do receive criticism it is usually for sounding a little thin and undynamic. The former is entirely down to the specific context, i.e. is the source item driving the lower than usual input impedance of the passive, and is the passive happy driving the power amp. Think of it as an interface component, context is everything. Some stuff works, other stuff doesn’t.

    As to ‘dynamics’ no audiophile who hasn’t spent several hours playing with a studio compressor should be allowed to use the word as they almost always get it the wrong way round! In reality more punch, slam, attack etc is almost always the result of more, not less compression. It is why actual compressors were designed! It is a reason I love my valve preamp as it does bring a hint of that along with the ability to tune to taste via tube-rolling. My Audio Synthesis passive is certainly more transparent, but I love the sound of the Verdier even though I fully understand it is adding something!
  3. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    The Sugden is Class A so my limited understanding and expectation would not presume it to be bright. It is high gain and ‘lively’, largely for good but the resistor based passive offers a smoother, more balanced sound with no downside I can hear once roughly level matched.
  4. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    I don't know how much your passive is rolling off the top end but the following measurements from yours truly gives an idea of the frequency balance you can expect from the Autograph Mini depending on how far off-axis you sit. As you can see, HF dispersion is still excellent even when >30 degrees off axis:


    Alex S likes this.
  5. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    Thanks. I can’t measure any roll off but would roll off = taming? The treble seems to be there but less energised.

    To be honest I’ve only listened very briefly to the Tannoys since I don’t wish to be tempted. They will cost money and then I think I’d need a sub or two. If this was the main system, maybe.

    This is mainly with the ProAcs.
    ToTo Man likes this.
  6. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    Without measuring it's difficult to tell what your passive preamp is doing to the response, but a typical treble tone control on an amp works like a roll-off filter, i.e. it reduces the overall level of the treble, but it has the biggest effect on the highest frequencies and tapers off as you move down into the midrange. That's assuming your preamp is actually affecting the FR. Contrary to what Keith et al. will have you believe, an amplifier can change the perceived tonal balance of a loudspeaker without changing the FR!
  7. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    At least I’ve learned that when my hearing really starts to go I can just plug the Sugden back in.
    omers and ToTo Man like this.
  8. foxwelljsly

    foxwelljsly Me too, I ate one sour too.

    I used a sugden headmaster as a pre amp for ages. Astronomical amounts of gain. Ditched it in favour of a passive setup.
  9. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    ToTo Man, I think you’re using subs with the Tannoys, is that right? Is that your primary setup?

    Yes, the Sugden is high gain, god knows what would happen if I stuck it on the Leak. Its not quite in Michell Orca territory, that really was ridiculous.
  10. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    The subs were originally bought for my (much bigger) Tannoy Edinburghs but I did try them very briefly with the Minis and liked what I heard. I didn't make a serious attempt to integrate them with the Minis so don't know what the potential is. Trouble is I have too many speakers and too little time and space to enjoy them so my mini monitors tend to get neglected!
  11. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    You find the Edinburghs need subs?
  12. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    They did before I swapped out the stock 3149 drivers for Monitor Gold 12's. :)

    With the Edinburgh Monitor Gold 12 and the Celestion Ditton 66, when I do use the subs, it's only to fill in below 40Hz, which is more "the icing on the cake" rather than "essential to the listening experience".
    Alex S likes this.
  13. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    So which subs, and can I make do with one?
  14. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    I have two BK XXLS400 subs.

    1 sub vs 2 subs is a very complex question that's influenced by many variables. I'm currently using only one sub and have positioned it behind me, centred on the back wall, the same distance away from my listening seat as my speakers are from my listening seat and am crossing over at a low enough frequency that you cannot locate the sound from the sub, it sounds like it's all coming from the main speakers, which is the ultimate goal. This becomes harder to achieve at higher crossover frequencies, for which best results are usually achieved by positioning the subs as close to the main speakers as possible which is what I did when I was running them with my "Edinburgh 3149s". Results can be improved by using DSP to optimise the time-alignment and crossover slope between subs and main speakers, this is something I've yet to explore. BK subwoofers do not come with on-board DSP so you'll need to invest in something like a miniDSP 2x4HD unit. The alternative is to buy a sub that has onboard DSP, I believe @JTC's SVS sub that he uses with his Harbeth P3ESRs has this.
    Alex S likes this.
  15. dave charlton

    dave charlton <><><><><><><><><>

    I did something similar earlier this year with Rega Kytes. Very near field listening firing across the room with no toe in. Fantastic sound and easily stored away but not really practical in the end.

    [​IMG]IMG_0022 by Dave Charlton, on Flickr

    [​IMG]IMG_0021 by Dave Charlton, on Flickr
    Alex S likes this.
  16. Ayya Khema

    Ayya Khema pfm Member

    When i played with small speakers, the joachim gerhard method was often preferred
    Here is a thread i had made a few years back about this
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2022
  17. Durmbo

    Durmbo not French

    Alex, are you still enjoying the severe toe in? I've reverted to having the LS3/5as just ever so gently toed in. The listening position must be spot on precise, but at a decent volume the soundstage is incredible, even at mid-field.
  18. Tarzan

    Tarzan pfm Member

    My Tablette 10's are firing around 1 foot from of my listening position- they sound great so have not bothered exploring any other speaker positioning.
  19. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    Actually, no. Speaker orientation is about the same (although its now Genelecs not ProAcs, different story) but I moved closer (as close as I can get the sofa whilst it still being a sofa bed if needed). I'm now 1.7m away and drivers point at my ears.
    Durmbo likes this.
  20. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    Or maybe the BC1 manual?


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