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Single Ended Valve amp scratch ...

Interesting short article on the differences between SET and PP topologies, minus any audiophile opinions and/or projections...

https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/what-do-the-terms-push-pull-and-single-ended-mean

For power amps push pull is vastly superior. That's simple fact. From as far back as the 30's valve data sheets would usually have figures for single ended class A and push pull operation of any valve deemed suitable for output duty... typical figures would be "class A single ended 5W @ 8% THD" and "push pull 15W @ 2% THD", both without corrective negative feedback of course.
Obviously the vast majority of pre amps, phono stages etc are single ended class A as there are no drawbacks at these tiny current levels and it's the cheapest and easiest way to do it. On a Michael Caine "not many people know that" front... push pull was invented in 1923 by Edwin Colpitts, of oscillator fame, whilst he was working for Bell Labs.
 
Sounds like a simple opinion to me.

Which of the hundreds of textbooks on amplifier design says otherwise? Could you point out a specification in which a single ended amplifier is better? I get to "fewer parts" and then I'm stuck I'm afraid... and as they usually have to be so heavy duty they're usually more expensive than twice the number of more normal parts...
 
Which of the hundreds of textbooks on amplifier design says otherwise? Could you point out a specification in which a single ended amplifier is better? I get to "fewer parts" and then I'm stuck I'm afraid... and as they usually have to be so heavy duty they're usually more expensive than twice the number of more normal parts...

Honestly, I trust what my ears say vs. measurements. So yeah, just an opinion.
 
Ah so you probably don't even know the difference between single ended and push pull and think a load line is used to tow a barge.... Night Night:rolleyes:

I didn't realize a degree in electrical engineering was a requirement in order to be a fan of hifi. I guess I'll sell all my equipment now. Dude, seriously, just because you're not a fan of SET amps, doesn't give you carte blanche to make blanket statements that all Push Pull amps are better than SET. For example, I'd put my Shindo Cortese SET amp up against any Push Pull you want, and I'm pretty sure you'd have a tough time topping it. But I guess if the measurements don't say so, you won't believe it.
 
Ah so you probably don't even know the difference between single ended and push pull and think a load line is used to tow a barge.... Night Night:rolleyes:
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That will depend on the speaker.;)
Indeed. I wish I could remember where I read it (diyAudio perhaps?) but someone did some tests with SE amps and single driver speakers, and found that if you matched the 2nd harmonic distortion characteristics, you could connect the speaker in antiphase and cancel that distortion. Multiway speakers confused the issue, the principle remains. Unfortunately many EEs only believe what they think they know and close their minds to anything else. Of course, their business often depends on that.
 
I can strongly recommend the Line Magnetic single ended tube amps.
I have the 518ia (though not using it now) and it sounded (and looked) superb. Runs very hot though
 
Jez is correct in saying that PP measures better with lower distortion than SE at a given power output for a specific valve. Hence designing a SE amplifier with low distortion and low levels of circuit noise is much harder to do well. The low level of circuit noise is really important, as the low power output of SE amplifiers means that you need efficient speakers. If you have ultra high efficiency horns like I do (104 dB/W), any circuit noise is readily audible.
With SE amplifiers, the quality of the output transformers is crucial in how good the amplifier will sound. Making custom transformers with high quality cores and interleavings is very expensive ie several hundred pounds each. That's a reason why high quality SE amplifiers cost a lot of money. I don't know what Decware use and so I cannot comment directly.
 
Whilst Charlie (topoxforddoc) is correct in that the quality of the transformer is crucial to the quality of a SET amp there is MUCH more to it than that. Internally generated noise has no bearing on the matter BTW and is similar whether SE or push pull. PSRR can be much better in the case of a push pull transformer coupled valve amp though.
The very fact that a valve is operated SE puts severe constraints on what can be achieved by an output transformer though... A gapped core is required to deal with the magnetising effect of the standing current without the core saturating. This means a MUCH bigger transformer must be used to achieve sufficient primary inductance. A consequence of this is that the inter-winding capacitances and leakage inductance etc will be far worse than for a smaller push pull transformer of equal or greater power rating. Magnetic hysteresis distortion will also be much higher in a SE transformer...

Those are "just" the problems in the output transformer itself of course...

SE, whether valve, transistor, mosfet, whatever, is also intrinsically asymmetrical.... if we imagine the signal waveform going up and down around a centre zero point then, depending on exact topology, a SE amp is more capable of pulling up than of pushing down (or vice versa). This is why they have intrinsically more distortion and also why it is predominantly second harmonic distortion. With all SET's I've ever had in you don't even need a distortion analyser to know something is badly wrong as the distortion is visibly obvious even on the oscilloscope screen! Put a 1KHz sine wave in and you will see that the top of it is elongated and the bottom is squashed quite visibly by the time you get to around 5W with a 16W SET. It's only by using them with like 105dB horns that they have much chance of being acceptable as they are only giving maybe 0.05W at normal listening levels.

Various tricks can be used, especially with solid state SE amps, to minimise the problems and in the case of solid state SE there is no nasty transformer in the way, hence plenty of negative feedback (NFB) can be applied to correct the distortion. The combination of these tricks and the NFB means SS SE amps can be perfectly good... if rather inefficient even by class A standards (I should have pointed out, in case it wasn't obvious, that all true SE amps, no matter if valve or SS, are intrinsically class A). A push pull class A amp using the same heatsinks and PSU would though deliver considerably higher power and with lower still distortion. A simple SE SS power amp I designed some time ago in simulation and which I just did a quick "reality check" with shows 0.002% THD at 20W, non too shabby, but remove the NFB and it's more like 10% THD, as expected....

The limitations inherent in SET output transformers mean that even the relatively low amounts of feedback used in push pull valve amps cannot be used in a normal SET amp. A few may have selectable NFB up to around 10-12dB but most just use zero NFB. 20-28dB is more common in push pull valve amps and 60dB or more in SS.

Such is the technical and economic advantage of push pull over SET that SET became obsolete virtually overnight when push pull was invented and for everything other than the cheapest equipment. SE (but usually pentode and about 3W) was still used in table radios and in TV sets up until the end of the common usage of valves but only for the economy of saving on the cost of two output valves. Equipment with pretensions of quality would often boast of "push pull output stage!".... Up until the likes of the Ongaku SET was resigned to history and hadn't been seen since the 30's...

A SE but Pentode amp which I do have a soft spot for is the Pye Mozart power amp:) This is a very clever bit of design! It uses one EL34 per channel, SE, and manages 9W, 0.2% THD and even a damping factor of 30! And it's quite small and light! I'll leave it to any interested readers of this to work out how it manages the seemingly impossible;)
 
I can see I've sparked a debate mentioning the technical weaknesses of the Single Ended valve amp - this I didn't really want - I just wanted good recommendations from listeners that have experience and know how to integrate a low wattage SE design into the heart of a system to good effect!

I was on the phone to Steve from Decware for a good 45 mins - he was a nice chap to talk to with good experience and advice for me about system building around an SE. His recommendation for me if I decide to buy new would be this: https://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84CKC.html - the SE84UFO. Only 2 Watts per channel.

I'm tempted as this amp is not expensive considering how much things can cost in the audiophile world - but I'm going to hop onto the Decware forum and see what folks have to say from there too.

Meanwhile keep your recommendations flooding in - I would still prefer to find a UK manufacturer. I was also on the phone to Icon Audio - yes they were pleasant enough - but I didn't pick up on the enthusiasm and deep knowledge coupled with useful information as presented by Steve from Decware.
 
I can see I've sparked a debate mentioning the technical weaknesses of the Single Ended valve amp - this I didn't really want - I just wanted good recommendations from listeners that have experience and know how to integrate a low wattage SE design into the heart of a system to good effect!

I was on the phone to Steve from Decware for a good 45 mins - he was a nice chap to talk to with good experience and advice for me about system building around an SE. His recommendation for me if I decide to buy new would be this: https://www.decware.com/newsite/SE84CKC.html - the SE84UFO. Only 2 Watts per channel.

I'm tempted as this amp is not expensive considering how much things can cost in the audiophile world - but I'm going to hop onto the Decware forum and see what folks have to say from there too.

Meanwhile keep your recommendations flooding in - I would still prefer to find a UK manufacturer. I was also on the phone to Icon Audio - yes they were pleasant enough - but I didn't pick up on the enthusiasm and deep knowledge coupled with useful information as presented by Steve from Decware.

If you do go down the Decware route don't forget to budget for the possibility of up to 25% or even 30% for import/VAT charges. You might get lucky but . . . . . .
 
If you are thinking of going down single ended valve amp route, listen to the TRON Atlantic integrated 300B. Sounds excellent, would work very well with your LVs, is made and supported in the UK, and you could offset the cost by selling your preamp.
 


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