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Should I Buy These Isobariks?

If you are looking for something lacking colouration, is an old skool subjectivist speaker (in need of attention too) the right place to look? I can't help feeling it may not be, not really. I think you really need to take a listen and see given your comments on the Forte IV.
Yes, I absolutely. I have learned very much with the help of this thread. I'm hoping to hear the speakers in the next week or two. (It's a 2-hour drive from where I live.) I realize that it won't be a perfect audition with questionable tweeters, but it should at least give me an idea of the general demeanor of the speaker. Then I can decide whether this has been a pipedream. ;)
 
I think when trying to discern if a speaker has a heap of colouration, or is more reasonably balanced, a plot can give an indication. I would agree in room response is what really matters, plus personal subjective preferences, but my point here (in so much as I manage one) is not to big up objectivism but to suggest the Forte IV is not obviously terribly coloured though Mike felt they were too coloured for him, while the Briks are undoubtedly coloured ... @Tony L if I amused you along the way I will take that as a plus, we all need more giggles in these troubled times surely ;)
What I heard initially from the Forte IV seemed like coloration, although that was a short audition. I've not heard many horn speakers, so it might have been the horn effect that's bandied about so often. All I can say is that it was "something" and quite obvious to me. It wasn't so terrible that I immediately hated all Klipsch speakers, and the Cornwall IV is still on my radar (even though it's very large).
 
The problem is there really is a religious crusade at present.

Yes never a good look.

PS Isobariks would suffer the same. It would actually be hysterical to see them get this modern measurement treatment by people who have no idea of their design intent or usage context. If ASR or whoever are clickbait fishing that one is a guaranteed win. SBLs & DBLs too!

Not at all lost on me as a long time SBL owner, it is only a matter of time since courting controversy is a great way to up clicks, views, whatever, if you are out to make your name then you can see the attraction. Taking Briks, Sara, Kans, DLB, SBL, IBL, SL2 etc that were all designed, as I understand it, to operate back to a wall (or indeed designs like corner horns!) and sticking them in free space and measuring them is not telling you so much ...
 
There is a lot of maths in PWK’s designs. He understood exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it… …His rational for both corner placement and tightly controlled dispersion is fascinating reading and remarkable in its logic. I rate him at a similar level to say Peter Walker, who is another designer who totally changed audio thinking.
You will probably tell me it already exists Tony but, if not, a thread on the legendary designers sounds like a great topic. I was blissfully unaware of the PWK papers you mentioned in your earlier post and my interest is now piqued to seek them out.
 
You will probably tell me it already exists Tony but, if not, a thread on the legendary designers sounds like a great topic. I was blissfully unaware of the PWK papers you mentioned in your earlier post and my interest is now piqued to seek them out.

There isn’t one specifically, the closest being classic room threads on various brands that do in part highlight design concepts, context etc. It is a good idea, we should have one.

There are several good books too, one on PWK is out of print, but you should find one for a lot less than Amazon LOLprice. If you search for ‘Dope from Hope’ you should find many of PWK’s writings, they were at one point well archived on the Klipsch forum, but the company has changed hands at least once since. There looks to be a Kickstarter at present to get this properly published.

Other histories well worth reading IMO:

Quad, The Closest Approach by Ken Kessler book is decent, if patchy. They can still be found for £50 or less with a bit of looking. Walker/Quad published many white papers both on ESLs and on amp design. These should be online somewhere.

Gilbert Briggs/Wharfedale, Briggs published many wonderful books on loudspeaker theory and design back in the 1950s and 60s, I have four I think. Well worth scouring eBay, e.g. one here. There is also a biography A Pair Of Wharfedales by his son, which I have, but haven’t got round to reading yet.

All the BBC loudspeaker research is available online if you google. Far more than just the LS3/5A. It is fascinating stuff.

Rega’s A Vibration Measuring Machine is very good and highlights some very original thinking in turntable design.

There’s a very good Leak book too, but sadly out of print.

The Tannoy book is more a company history and actually deals very little with loudspeaker design concepts etc.
 
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How would some canadian big boys of the same era compare - like the Mirage M-1 and PSB Stratus Gold?
I am Canadian and as a general rule, the PSB, Mirage and Camber speakers are very good but a tad quiet if not boring according to me. I would compare them to Vienna Acoustic.
Some British speakers such as the Linn, some vintage Kef and IMF are in another league with more bass depth and impact and a warmer sound.
I had the opportunity to compare side by side some of those Canadian speakers against a very basic Tangent TM 1 speaker and everybody agreed the Tangent were the most enjoyable of the lot.
 
So I'm really starting to appreciate that "scale" factor, and I'm not willing to live without.

It's worth mentioning that it depends on the room. My little office (11x12', or 3.3x3.6m) has the Ergo IX stand-mounters, and it has no trouble creating the effect I desire....

So I'm hoping/wondering whether the Brik can sound dynamic and big in a moderately large room, at both quiet and louder volumes.


Something must be going on here!
Your office will have room modes between 50 and 60 Hz. Maybe this is where the "scale" is coming from?

A good alternative to Briks is Gale 401s. I think these were made in the US as well as UK. Maybe easier to find? The main problem is that the foam surrounds on the bass units perish.
 
There is a lot of maths in PWK’s designs. He understood exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it. The positioning intent of the Heresy fully explains the response. It was a design decision. His rational for both corner placement and tightly controlled dispersion is fascinating reading and remarkable in its logic. I rate him at a similar level to say Peter Walker, who is another designer who totally changed audio thinking. Another who’s stunningly good loudspeakers wouldn’t measure well bolted to one of these flavour of the month measuring machines.

PWK was also deaf as a stump, having worked in armaments testing during WWII. I was talking to one ex-Klipsch engineer who claimed that Paul was so hung up on intermodulation distortion because it created a beat frequency with the ringing in his ears.
 
There is a pair available near me for £550 if anybody interested, border of England/ North Wales, let me know of you are interested. Isobaroks I mean.
 
Something must be going on here!
Your office will have room modes between 50 and 60 Hz. Maybe this is where the "scale" is coming from?

A good alternative to Briks is Gale 401s. I think these were made in the US as well as UK. Maybe easier to find? The main problem is that the foam surrounds on the bass units perish.
Quite simply, it's easier to energize a smaller room.

I should point out that my family room system doesn't sound "bad". It actually sounds very good, but not "big". I would like it to seem massive in comparison to my office.

Maybe it's just a phase in going through. :oops:
 
It was for 5 weeks actually, not years. Even the dealer failed to pick it up as omnidirectional speakers do do sound as bad when out of phase as normal speakers do. That was a very cheap remark to be honest, we expected that sort of thing on the old Mana forum, not here.
 
It was for 5 weeks actually, not years. Even the dealer failed to pick it up as omnidirectional speakers do do sound as bad when out of phase as normal speakers do. That was a very cheap remark to be honest, we expected that sort of thing on the old Mana forum, not here.
I just took it as a funny bit of ribbing, and your explanation makes perfect sense.

When I built my first amp, one channel's internal connection from the binding posts to the companion SpeakON was out of phase. Consequently, it sounded fine when using banana plugs, but when you used the SpeakON the bass was anemic. It had me scratching my head for a while, until I traced through all of the wiring.
 
I should point out that my family room system doesn't sound "bad". It actually sounds very good, but not "big".

When you say "big" I came to think of Bose 901 speakers.

Heard them briefly decades ago and my memory they sounded big, maybe a bit confuse.

Not a favorite among audiophiles but I believe loved by many other listeners.
Looks must be a personal thing, no idea if they works close to wall.
 
When you say "big" I came to think of Bose 901 speakers.

Heard them briefly decades ago and my memory they sounded big, maybe a bit confuse.

Not a favorite among audiophiles but I believe loved by many other listeners.
Looks must be a personal thing, no idea if they works close to wall.
That does resonate with my ruminations. There seem to be multiple factors/methods ways to create "scale":
  • Volume! - This can do it, but I've heard speakers produce it at lower volumes.
  • Fast transients - Efficient speakers tend to do this well, as to horns which are typically efficient.
  • Big speakers - These are often more efficient, so perhaps the prior point covers this.
  • Big/Sub Woofers - Bass seems to necessary for a sense of scale.
  • Omnidirectional / many drivers - If you bounce the sound everywhere, then you get more scale at the expense of imaging.
There are various speakers that we've been discussing that use these strategies:
  • Isobariks seem to take the bass + many drivers approach, which is probably why they're accused of not creating a good soundstage (or at least not enabling pinpoint imaging).
  • Shaninian, Larsen, and Ohm go the omnidirectional route, and aren't known for their imaging.
  • Klipsh speakers are large, efficient, and horn-loaded (although their horns are accused of sounding colored).
In order of priority, I require:
  1. Rhythm and dynamics (a.k.a. PRaT)
  2. Soundstage (and hopefully good imaging)
  3. Practicality/WAF (I prefer it to be as small as possible, and fairly close to the wall)
  4. Scale (so I'm immersed in the music)
I have 1-3 now, and I would like more of 4. Perhaps Isobariks will do this without forcing me to give up any/much of what I already have. And perhaps they won't.

Therein lies the challenge. :rolleyes:
 
If you read, what I think are, the good diy loudspeaker sites, troels and humble, then you will see they both say bass (scale?) is only achieved with lots of driver area. Both say that only when you use at least a 12inch woofer do you get a feeling of how a double bass really sounds.
I suggest you look for speakers with big, light moving mass, bass drivers.

The Linn Isobarik was when it was designed was a very clever loudspeaker concept and produced deep bass from a relatively small cabinet with a slow bass roll off, combining standard oem drivers that were available at the time.
Nowadays it is easily possible to produce single bass drivers with practically the same characteristics as the isobarik Kef B139s used in the Brik. This is why very few companies make isobaric speakers.
However the Linn Isobarik is not just a good bass performer but also uses additional drivers on top of the speaker to improve the "space" feeling you are trying for.

Going active on the Isobarik allows you to get rid of all the big mH inductors in the woofer crossovers to "speed up" and improve control of the bass. Biamping the bass drivers on the Isobarik resolves the issue of the Naim 250 not being particularly strong when used with speaker loads below 3ohms (2 KEF B139 in parallel ca 3 ohms, single driven units 6ohms). The other advantage of using active amplification is you can "turn up" the bass and lower mid if you listen predominately at low levels to compensate for how our ears work at low volumes (less bass sensitivity).

I don't think the Isobariks will give you a "being there" experience when listening to Saint Saens organ symphony when the organ comes in, lots and lots of air movement required. However they will be better than a large number of speakers on the market.

If you can find a speaker with a closed box (slow bass roll off, good against the wall) with a 12inch woofer, an omnidirectional characteristic midrange and treble similar to the Shahinian Arc then you might just reach your Hifi valhalla.
In the mean time buy the Briks (if they can be made to work correctly for small money!), drive the bass units actively and enjoy.
 


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