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Setting up speakers

a.palfreyman

a.palfreyman

pfm Member
Guys,
Been playing around with speaker placement as I was pretty sure I am not getting the best out of my speakers and wanted some tips. Been using the "master set" method (mentioned on this site). Instructions here:
http://www.hifi.ir/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/master-set.pdf
which suggests using Ballad of a Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes on either Famous Blue Raincoat, 20th Anniversary Edition, or Rob Wasserman - Duets, both about £30 or thereabouts on ebay etc. Don't really want to spend 30 notes on something that probably won't get played much so wanted to find a suitable CD. I am assuming something simple with a solid and steady image and wondered what you guys use? Thought about something like this:
https://www.discogs.com/Vladimir-Ashkenazy-Beethoven-Moonlight-Sonata-Appassionata-Sonata-Pathétique-Sonata/release/4522482
as piano (of all instruments) probably gives a full tonal and dynamic range. Any comments on this or other pointers greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
AP
 
Personally I’d use a nice wide selection of acoustic music; solo piano, chamber, jazz ensemble, concerto/symphony etc and anything else you like yourself. Don’t get hung up on other people’s choices, and I’d certainly not buy a Jennifer Warnes abum you don’t care about just because some internet “guide” recommends it. It’s just close-mic’d studio pop/AOR anyway, so not the best system test IMHO.

The stuff I’d avoid setting up with is very loud boosted modern pop, rap, R&B etc as the bass is often just so overcooked to sound good on small ‘lifestyle’ speakers, iPhone earbuds etc that you’ll never get a properly recorded piano, string quartet or jazz album to sound right if you use it as a reference point! Obviously if it represents the majority of your taste then ignore this - there is no ‘right’ here, only what works for you.

Just take your time and trust your ears. There will be people along soon telling you that you are both deaf and stupid and the only way to do it is with a mic and loads of digital chicanery in the signal path. Believe them if you wish, though I’d advise trying to get a great sound with just sensible setup of speaker and listening seat position along with a sensible acoustic approach to the room first (i.e. carpets, rugs, soft furnishing etc along with lots of books, records etc all helps a room sound more natural). The studio ‘live end/dead end’ approach is well worth considering and has always served me well, i.e. avoid any opposing pairs of reflective surfaces.
 
Tony,
Thanks for that, very informative. I will re-read and digest when I have time. I very much believe the same thing: that so long as it sounds right it is right for the individual, but wanted some pointers as I am struggling to get the "last bit" out of the set-up.
Any pointers on chamber music as I have none but would like some? I like melodic / "musical" music, definitely don't like free jazz or similar.
Cheers,
AP
 
I’d have a read through the rather wonderful classical room here on pfm. We have, for instance, one of the most comprehensive round-ups of the Beethoven Piano Sonatas I’ve ever seen in my life!

For string quartets you can’t go wrong with Beethoven, the late quartets are his finest work IMHO. Lots to love with all the best known composers to be honest, e.g. Schubert wrote wonderful and accessible chamber music, plus lots to like in earlier music such as Haydn, Mozart etc. I love more recent stuff too e.g. Bartok, Shostakovich etc.

I’ll let others in the classical room more knowledgable than me make specific recommendations, but to be honest it is hard to go wrong with major label output (Decca, DGG, HMV/EMI, RCA, Philips etc) from the stereo era (>1958). No one who couldn’t play got recorded, and no one who couldn’t record got to sit behind the mixer! Its all good and when it comes to system setup it is all about using *a lot* of source material. It is a huge mistake to try and set a system up using only a couple of records or CDs, you want to arrive at a good compromise/balance between genres, eras etc. I’ve seen far too many people end up in cul-de-sacs trying to get one particular record to sound great.
 
Tony,
Thanks again. I think I have the tonality about right (it's a DIY 3-way set-up) but it is more to do with stereo imaging that I am trying to sort. I know I have some room issues (standing waves / nulls / peaks but the room is square so not much I can do TBH) but just wanted to get the best stereo image out of it.
Will thumb through your suggestions (and the thread you mention) and see what I can find. I already have a small selection of nice Blue Note jazz (from the Blue Note thread, thanks) so it was really just getting some more WELL RECORDED acoustic stuff. Will get some piano (single acoustic source) and some quartet (multiple acoustic source) and take it from there. Always listened to rock / prog oriented music (with an inclination towards jazz or classical which my Dad liked) so broadening my musical education as well.
Thanks,
AP
 
I think the moral is try, try, and try again.

I've spent ages trying to get my speakers to:
1. produce a good general in-room response
2. not emphasise my 80-100Hz room mode
3. give a decent stereo image

After approaching it from a scientific viewpoint complete with response curves, etc, I found by lots of trial-and-error that the best position is nothing like the science would suggest...
 
Zippy,
Have been slowly coming to that conclusion myself. I am getting the feeling that more patience and more experimentation is required!
Cheers, AP
 
Probably a beginner's mistake, but I wasted a lot of time initially by getting the height wrong relative to the listening position. I have a pair of Linn Majiks which I initially dismissed as nothing special. Many speakers and much time and money later I discovered that they're actually rather good. Likewise a much cheaper pair of Monitor Audios - transformed on a second-hand plinth.
 
I’ve just lifted my Eatons up about 150mm and it has transformed them. They were lower for convenience, but now sound amazing.
 
Thanks guys,
I have mine set on stands with the mid-point between tweeter and mid (which is above the tweeter) at ear level. I have tried both lower and higher and this is about right (according to my ears).
Ordered some piano: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=301724618941 and http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=381396952596 so I have two different takes on the same music. Also bought some Beethoven quartets: https://www.discogs.com/Beethoven-Bartók-Quartet-String-Quartets-Op-18-Nos-4-6/release/7783643 and http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=292838258209 as well as some Starker solo cello: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=303100843666 and some more Bach organ music as I love the power and majesty: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-5...0001&campid=5338728743&icep_item=291562322210 and https://www.dodax.nl/nl-nl/muziek-c...ton-koopman-bach-orgelwerke-vi-dp5K6CTKJKPPE/. These were incredibly cheap s/h from music magpie, the lot for 15 notes, should arrive Thurs / Fri.
Weekend awaits!
AP
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
Making a virtue of necessity - or some such excuse.

I've just replaced the mains unit in one of the ESLs: the rest of my week is going to sound very similar, minus the organ music.
 
Starting from what you'll know/expect anyway: The choice of material clearly depends a lot on the kind of music you like. Also on the extent to which you wish to have 'realistic stereo imaging' or a particular sound in terms of frequency response, etc.

However I've tended to find some of the older classical music recordings in stereo handy for assessing stereo imaging. e.g. early Decca stereo or some of the ones done by EMI. Reason being that they only used a few mics and channels so have to get that right and not 'spotlight' things and generate a faked image.

More recently, concerts either via a good R3 feed (e.g. iplayer download using get-iplayer) or on cover discs on "BBC Music Magazine". Some of these can be really excellent music, very well recorded, and avoid the excesses of some 'commercial' recordings. Cheap, too. :)

Then you just have to listen a lot and trade off fiddling with speakers against simply relaxing and enjoying. 8-]
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
Starting from what you'll know/expect anyway: The choice of material clearly depends a lot on the kind of music you like. Also on the extent to which you wish to have 'realistic stereo imaging' or a particular sound in terms of frequency response, etc.

However I've tended to find some of the older classical music recordings in stereo handy for assessing stereo imaging. e.g. early Decca stereo or some of the ones done by EMI. Reason being that they only used a few mics and channels so have to get that right and not 'spotlight' things and generate a faked image.

More recently, concerts either via a good R3 feed (e.g. iplayer download using get-iplayer) or on cover discs on "BBC Music Magazine". Some of these can be really excellent music, very well recorded, and avoid the excesses of some 'commercial' recordings. Cheap, too. :)

Then you just have to listen a lot and trade off fiddling with speakers against simply relaxing and enjoying. 8-]
Click to expand...

Yes, been doing that a lot over past 2 years-ish. Wanted a project and got some JPW AP2s which I refoamed but couldn't sell for what they cost so built a baffle to take HB3 mids which I bought needing a refoam and some 1" metal dome tweeters. Made the baffle free-standing with the mid mounted flush with the front of the baffle and tweeter mounted 28mm behind the front of the baffle to time-align the coils. This is so that I could play with the alignment of the mid/tweet combo with the bass units in the AP2s, with mid/tweet baffle sat on top of the AP2s laid on their sides. In that 2 years I have spent about 1200 hrs playing with / adjusting the cross-over and learning. I am very pleased with the results and had found that good jazz recordings sounded really good but that the image could sometimes "wander" a little with frequency. Nothing drastic but noticeable. So really speaking I am at the latter stages and just trying to get the last bit out of them WRT imaging and I realised some time ago (from internet and people on this forum) that you need good, simple recordings and acoustic recordings will likely sound more natural. Trying piano because of the single source / large frequency and dynamic range, and then some quartets for multiple source. Hope I can get it all to gel.
Cheers,
AP
 
Thanks Jim,
Realised that my seating position leaves a wall to my left and a window to my right, but despite always having the curtains closed, upper-mids were shifting right, probably due to the window. Hung a second curtain over what was there and readjusted toe-in which seemed to improve imaging on quartets and organ music. However going back to jazz, something was "missing" in the presentation so need to play some more.
 
The single underlying fact I take from this forum is that no-one should extrapolate his/her personal hearing, taste and environment into dogma - but (grin) jazz sounds best to me (whatever speakers I'm using) with a pair of REL subs in the background providing a 'platform' for the remaining frequencies. I know they're Marmite to some, and if I'd ever managed to scratch the Tannoy itch I'd expect them to have been superfluous then, but otherwise for me they're indispensable.

(The other exceptions might be Dutch & Dutch or the Kii but I don't choose to spend that much and prefer to tinker anyway.)
 
davidjt said:
The single underlying fact I take from this forum is that no-one should extrapolate his/her personal hearing, taste and environment into dogma - but (grin) jazz sounds best to me (whatever speakers I'm using) with a pair of REL subs in the background providing a 'platform' for the remaining frequencies. I know they're Marmite to some, and if I'd ever managed to scratch the Tannoy itch I'd expect them to have been superfluous then, but otherwise for me they're indispensable.

(The other exceptions might be Dutch & Dutch or the Kii but I don't choose to spend that much and prefer to tinker anyway.)
Click to expand...

Yes, pretty much my philosophy (being a tight bugger helps ;)). I also enjoy the challenge as it keeps the grey-matter active.
Made some progress with slight (yes I mean slight) adjustments of an odd mm or 2 backwards and a very slight reduction in the toe-in (2-3mm in about 450 wide so about 0.5degree!) with the right speaker and this has improved things somewhat. Bought a copy of "Love - Forever Changes" and found that track 6 has a wide l-r split with centred vocals so have used a 1 into 2 splitter so I can play the l-channel only (which has some nice solid bass) through both channels and I am assured that these will be exactly in-phase. Will continue to experiment though because despite many recording sounding better / more focused, some of the piano on some blue-note jazz seems to lose out a little, sounding slightly muffled.
Best,
AP
 
[oops, continuing my theme..]

I used choral music [anything large scale - voice being a sound with which we all familiar]

it takes patience and extended time period but results for me have been startling. i'm appreciating my epos 14s like never before.

have fun.
 
modmalpf said:
hi,
i'm new to forum but this is subject that ihterests me.

slightly unconventional but I recommend you read this page - esp from 3.4 way down...http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/speaker.html
Click to expand...

Interesting read, thanks for that. He seems to defy convention somewhat with regard to asymmetric tweeter placement i.e. toe-in requires tweeters to be outside, but it would appear he prefers no toe-in and with tweeters innermost which is pretty much the opposite of what most indicate as the preferred arrangement. Anyway this article led me to try evening out the balance of other items in the room (dead end) and as I was off work for the holiday, I played around somewhat last week and have made some worthwhile improvements. In particular the euphonium on 'Ready for Freddie' (Freddie Hubbard, Blue-Note CD) was not heard as a separate instrument when all three horns were playing but can now be made out for the most part in front of and slightly lower in position than the trumpet which tended to mask it before. I (think) I have also proved that my room is far from ideal as using test tones / frequency sweeps shows many discrepancies / standing waves / suck-outs / peaks etc. In fact I was listening to some organ music and a particular pair of notes of close frequency were hard left BEHIND my head (hard left in headphones). Switching L-R over moved most sounds as expected but these particular notes stayed left but now seemed to be in front of me. I have a much better / more coherent middle-image now but it can still fall apart a bit so I might try moving the speakers a little closer together as the article suggests about 5'-6" apart for smaller rooms and mine are set at just over 6' apart with a listening distance of just over 7'.
Best,
AP
 
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