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Seated in a bass 'suck-out' zone

W

wcavanagh

pfm Member
Are there any solutions for getting decent bass response in a ‘suck-out’ zone that don’t involve moving seating position?

I don’t have much scope for moving my speakers except for in / out by a few inches, and I cannot move my sofa out of the suck-out zone (the dining table is behind), so I’m thinking a change of speakers might fix it.

Would I have better results with sealed or transmission line speakers? Are there any other tricks I can try?

Thanks!
 
I believe you'll find the suckout is a characteristic of the room and the positions of yourself and the speakers. I use DSP with my active bass, when changing bass drivers & cabinets I have no need to change the DSP settings.

You may find a small change in position can make a huge difference. I brought my speakers forward 6" and in 6", this solved a suckout issue I had.
 
A good transmission line (esspecially the sort that damp out the rear wave) or a sealed box I have found are, not immune, but much less fussy for positioning and room interaction.

It may not help, could depend exactly what's causing bass to be lost in that area, but it could help.

Find a good local dealer who will allow home demo :)
 
Speakers unlikely to change it - it's a room/speaker interaction thing. Unless the existing speakers are weak in that area tto?

Moving the speakers just a little can help (which some might confuse as *not* having been the fix when putting new speakers in!).
 
It is counter intuitive but you need to absorb bass at the frequency of the suck out, you need to acoustically measure your room to see exactly what is happening, that it is the first step.
Keith
 
Purite Audio said:
It is counter intuitive but you need to absorb bass at the frequency of the suck out, you need to acoustically measure your room to see exactly what is happening, that it is the first step.
Keith
Click to expand...

Yep, if it's phase cancellation related, which is quite likely.

Problem is that room treatments aren't always practical in a shared living space.

Sometimes a change of speakers will fix things since different speakers interact with the room differently.
 
Not unless the new speakers' bass response doesn't extend as deeply as the current ones.
You really need to find the frequency and extent of the cancellation first and then consider ways to fix it.
Keith.
 
Purite Audio said:
Not unless the new speakers' bass response doesn't extend as deeply as the current ones.
You really need to find the frequency and extent of the cancellation first and then consider ways to fix it.
Keith.
Click to expand...

Almost agree but IME different speakers have different dispersion characteristics and can output a lot of bass to the sides and rear.

I do agree that where you really have a problem and repositioning the speakers or seating position by a few inches doesn't fix it, it needs measuring before an effective solution can be found, otherwise you're p!ssing in the wind.
 
Depends what is the cause of the suck-out. If it's a reflection from a boundary that cancels the sound then changing speakers will not help. Nothing but absorbing the reflection will do the job (and is difficult in the bass range) If the cause is a resonance between two boundaries of the room and you just happen to be sitting in a node then a different type of speaker might help.

Do you get more bass when you stand up in the same position, or when you move forward/back or to each side? If so I'd guess it's a room mode. If you can figure out the frequency of the suck-out you could enter the room dimensions in a mode calculator and see if it matches.

Sealed speakers are pressure sources while ported and transmission line speakers (in the range the port is operational) are mainly velocity sources so can excite the room modes differently. Transmission lines tend to operate over a broader range than a typical port so my guess is they would have a better chance of driving the room differently. As would an open baffle woofer like Jamo things or an ESL. You know you want ESL63s!
 
Thanks for the replies.

When I sit at the dining table near the rear wall everything sounds spot-on. If I stand up at my seating position or move forward or backward by a metre or so I get way more bass.

I have two REL T-7 subwoofers but to get a good bass response I need to increase the gain too much which then generates WAY too much bass at any location other than my listening spot. It would be great if I could use DSP to get more use from these subs.

So it looks like the first port of call is to measure the room then possibly do some EQ / DSP. Would something like the MiniDSP UMIK-1 (https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1) be a good purchase for this job?
 
I am biased but that is perfect for the job, you could use one of their processors to EQ your room and integrate your subs all with the same $10 piece of software.
Keith.
 
linnfomaniac83 said:
Almost agree but IME different speakers have different dispersion characteristics and can output a lot of bass to the sides and rear.

I do agree that where you really have a problem and repositioning the speakers or seating position by a few inches doesn't fix it, it needs measuring before an effective solution can be found, otherwise you're p!ssing in the wind.
Click to expand...

Below 80hz ish bass is omnidirectional ,that is why it is worth discovering the frequency/ies of the cancellation.
Keith.
 
Sounds like common standing wave issues you're having, try making some DIY bass traps to slightly improve the low end response of the room.
Google DIY Bass traps for plenty of examples.
Don't go for foam, this does nothing for bass only really highs and mids.

A sealed box won't cure the issues you're having but depending on the size of the sealed speaker will play the room less so the issues won't be as noticeable.
Also try avoiding rear ported speakers especially when you can only place them close to rear walls/corners as this will only excite the room more.

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec07/articles/acoustics.htm
 
DSP will usually not help a lot with suck-outs. When you EQ it to have bass at your seating position it will be too much elsewhere. Just like when you turn up the subs.

I suggest trying open baffle speakers. As you already have subs the very low freq's can be handled by those. Or you need to relocate the speakers or seat. Not many other options. If the issue is say <100Hz bass traps can help but to get a significant change you need quite a lot of big and tuned items in the right location.

http://www.jamo.com/speaker-types/floorstanding/?sku=R909

http://www.emeraldphysics.com/category-overview/panel-speakers

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
 
More bass in the corners of the room is common, corners naturally amplify sound... Especially low frequencies.

Personally I don't like using subs and find generally tend to cause more issues than solving any.

A friend has the first B&W 801 which has something like a 12" LF driver in a sealed cab, sounds superb in most rooms. No sub needed :D
Superb speaker that imo still sounds better than a lot of modern stuff, don't know why I've never brought a pair!
 
You can even use one of your subs to destructively drive the cancellation!
Subs are fantastic, they just need to be properly integrated, tell the main speakers the frequency you wish them to play down to and then cross the subs , et voila they become just another perfectly integrated driver, measure the room and apply any EQ if required.
Keith.
 
IME reducing the problem of peaks and nulls with broadband absorption is easier said than done and without proper understanding can become an incredibly frustrating 'suck it and see' exercise. I tried GIK Monster Bass Traps on the rear wall, front wall, side walls, corners, and nothing had a significant effect. In fact placing them on the rear wall (behind the listening position) made the peaks and nulls worse! I was finally advised to try locating the panels in the middle of the ceiling and on the middle of the floor, but that was a step too far even for me! Moving the listening position back or forward did have a significant but not particularly helpful impact, in that the peaks and nulls were not eradicated but merely shifted in frequency!
 
ToTo Man said:
IME reducing the problem of peaks and nulls with broadband absorption is easier said than done and without proper understanding can become an incredibly frustrating 'suck it and see' exercise. I tried GIK Monster Bass Traps on the rear wall, front wall, side walls, corners, and nothing had a significant effect. In fact placing them on the rear wall (behind the listening position) made the peaks and nulls worse! I was finally advised to try locating the panels in the middle of the ceiling and on the middle of the floor, but that was a step too far even for me! Moving the listening position back or forward did have a significant but not particularly helpful impact, in that the peaks and nulls were not eradicated but merely shifted in frequency!
Click to expand...

Yes I did more or less exactly the same thing, I had nowhere near enough depth of foam to make the slightest difference to the 45hz standing wave I was trying to ameliorate .
I can recommend Floyd Toole's. 'Sound Reproduction'.
Keith
Keith
 
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