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Scottish Politics

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Brian said:
Obviously it is impossible for Labour to deliver on a promise of keeping the UK in the EU given in 2014 the Tories were the party in government and have since been re-elected 3 times. Unless people vote for Labour there isn't anything they can do. The opposition does not make government policy.

In 2014 opposing independence meant being in the same camp as the majority of voters in Scotland.
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The first para is true but trivial.

The second para is correct but doesn't dig deep enough:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll

In 2014 the vast majority of SNP voters supported independence, and the vast majority of Tory voters opposed it. Nosurprises there. The interesting stuff happens in the middle, where roughly 40% of both Labour and Lib-Dem voters supported independence. At that time, the Labour vote in Scotland was much healthier than it is now. It doesn't take a genius to work out where those Labour voters went (and why).

I'm not arguing for independence by the way, although I do support the right to self-determination. My main point is that unless Labour acknowledges and addresses its historic misreading of Scottish politics, it might as well shut upshop north of the border.
 
wacko said:
Population of Scotland is 5.5m. Population of New Zealand is 5m. Can't see any reason why the Scots can't make an equally good job of running their own country.
In fact a reasonable percentage of Kiwis are of Scots descent.
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I shall look forward to the Scots enthusiastic adoption of cricket then.
 
I am strongly anti-nationalist but the situation in UK at the moment is a choice between the hard-right English nationalist Cummings administration which wants to cut trade ties to all of the key global markets, and a progressive pro-Europe SNP. Its a no-brainer to vote SNP at the scottish elections next year to give the strongest possible mandate for a second independence referendum.
 
Colin L said:
As I recall it the yes vote was leading and then labour and Tories hatched “the pledge” and “the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the union”, both lies, which swayed the waverers. Droid has it right.
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In what way was the ‘yes’ vote leading? Don’t mention opinion polls, that’s not the same as voting, obviously.

droodzilla said:
The first para is true but trivial.

The second para is correct but doesn't dig deep enough:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll

In 2014 the vast majority of SNP voters supported independence, and the vast majority of Tory voters opposed it. Nosurprises there. The interesting stuff happens in the middle, where roughly 40% of both Labour and Lib-Dem voters supported independence. At that time, the Labour vote in Scotland was much healthier than it is now. It doesn't take a genius to work out where those Labour voters went (and why).

I'm not arguing for independence by the way, although I do support the right to self-determination. My main point is that unless Labour acknowledges and addresses its historic misreading of Scottish politics, it might as well shut upshop north of the border.
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The first paragraph was anything but trivial. Thanks though.

Those critical of Labour for failing to deliver on an impossible promise need to have a think about govt and opposition. Why on earth would anyone believe the opposition can deliver on such a promise?

In case of any doubt, I’m all in favour of self determination too, never said otherwise. I’m also in favour of respecting the outcome of a referendum, even if the result isn’t to my liking.
 
rbrown said:
IOW answer the question but don’t give me the answer.
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It means answer the question but don’t make it a daft one. Voting day is all that counts, nobody is actually ‘in the lead’ until it all unfolds on the day.

If we went by opinion polls we wouldn’t have brexit.
 
The answer is that public opinion was in favour of independence but opinion was manipulated by promises of continued EU membership and its benefits, which swung the vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

So how can your question be answered without mentioning opinion polls?
 
rbrown said:
The answer is that public opinion was in favour of independence but opinion was manipulated by promises of continued EU membership and its benefits, which swung the vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

So how can your question be answered without mentioning opinion polls?
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DFTT
 
rbrown said:
The answer is that public opinion was in favour of independence but opinion was manipulated by promises of continued EU membership and its benefits, which swung the vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

So how can your question be answered without mentioning opinion polls?
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They won’t be able to pull that stunt again, obviously. ‘Vote against Scottish independence and we’ll make sure you’re dragged out of the EU in a chaotic retreat led by hedge funds and the far right of the Tory Party and we’ll strip away your employment and consumer rights then come after your country’s devolved powers’. What’s not to like?
 
Indeed - I wish Scotland well in their quest for independence, I wouldn’t hesitate to vote for it. It might do English politics some good too, with the current Tory government being seen as the most inept administration in living memory, this side of the pond at least.
 
rbrown said:
The answer is that public opinion was in favour of independence but opinion was manipulated by promises of continued EU membership and its benefits, which swung the vote in favour of remaining in the UK.

So how can your question be answered without mentioning opinion polls?
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ha ha ha. I know. :rolleyes: Crikey, you're not the sharpest, are you.

Whatever the polls, nobody is "leading" in the vote until the day.

Colin L said:
DFTT
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Whatever.
 
Ask a fatuous question and throw your toys out of the pram when you get an answer.
 
rbrown said:
Ask a fatuous question and throw your toys out of the pram when you get an answer.
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You’re miles off the mark.

Anyway, let me ask you something. I too wish Scots the best of luck should they get independence, I just don’t want it to happen, I believe it will be damaging for Scotland regardless of how shite the tory govt is, much the same as those in favour of remaining in the EU feel about the potential damage from brexit.

What is the problem you and others have with that?
 
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