Scottish Politics

[SteveG]

At the moment it looks like Labour is just burying its head in the sand, and hoping the issue will go away.

What it looks like is that Scottish Labour are following a Westminster agenda that brooks no debate or discussion over independence (although there used to be a fair amount of support for independence in Scottish Labour in the past).

Independence is perhaps the best thing that could happen for Scottish Labour as it's cut them loose from the lunacy that is the UK Labour party currently. Ultimately they'd probably return to being the dominant party in Scotland.

 

[Seanm]

What it looks like is that Scottish Labour are following a Westminster agenda that brooks no debate or discussion over independence (although there used to be a fair amount of support for independence in Scottish Labour in the past).

Independence is perhaps the best thing that could happen for Scottish Labour as it's cut them loose from the lunacy that is the UK Labour party currently. Ultimately they'd probably return to being the dominant party in Scotland.

Genuinely interested to hear what you think is lunatic about the current Labour Party, and why you think Scottish Labour is so much better.

 

[Brian]

What it looks like is that Scottish Labour are following a Westminster agenda that brooks no debate or discussion over independence (although there used to be a fair amount of support for independence in Scottish Labour in the past).

Independence is perhaps the best thing that could happen for Scottish Labour as it's cut them loose from the lunacy that is the UK Labour party currently. Ultimately they'd probably return to being the dominant party in Scotland.

Can you flesh out what you see as the lunacy of the UK Labour party currently?

 

[SteveG]

Genuinely interested to hear what you think is lunatic about the current Labour Party, and why you think Scottish Labour is so much better.

I don't think Scottish Labour is "so much better". Currently they're just as shit as UK Labour. As for the lunacy I don't think that requires explanation to anyone who doesn't have blinkers on.

 

[Seanm]

I don't think Scottish Labour is "so much better". Currently they're just as shit as UK Labour. As for the lunacy I don't think that requires explanation to anyone who doesn't have blinkers on.

No, I’m genuinely at a loss. Of all the negative ways to describe Sir Keith’s captaincy, “lunatic” has got to be the most counterintuitive.

 

[SteveG]

No, I’m genuinely at a loss. Of all the negative ways to describe Sir Keith’s captaincy, “lunatic” has got to be the most counterintuitive.

So you think the Labour party is in a great place at the moment?

 

[Seanm]

So you think the Labour party is in a great place at the moment?

No, I don’t, but I’m probably in a minority (Labour are back to near level-pegging with the Tories in the polls), they are manifestly doing much better outside of Scotland than in it, and...lunatic? Sorry it’s just bizarre.

 

[SteveG]

Sorry it’s just bizarre.

I agree that thinking Labour is in a good place is bizarre.

I expect the only reason they're looking a bit better than the rock-bottom they were previously is that they are up against by far the least competent government we've ever had in the UK (i.e. if they were in a good situation they should be dominating the polls), where as in Scotland they're up against a party that has demonstrated a reasonable level of cohesion and competence.

 

[Seanm]

I agree that thinking Labour is in a good place is bizarre.

I expect the only reason they're looking a bit better than the rock-bottom they were previously is that they are up against by far the least competent government we've ever had in the UK (i.e. if they were in a good situation they should be dominating the polls), where as in Scotland they're up against a party that has demonstrated a reasonable level of cohesion and competence.

But...I don't think Labour is in a good place, as I just said. They're up against the worst government the UK has ever had and under any other leader etc. etc.

I'm still really interested in what it is about Labour's current direction you associate with lunacy. It might seem OT but if as I suspect you find Starmer to be loony left then it might say something quite interesting about the SNP's voter base.

 

[monkfish]

But...I don't think Labour is in a good place, as I just said. They're up against the worst government the UK has ever had and under any other leader etc. etc.

I'm still really interested in what it is about Labour's current direction you associate with lunacy. It might seem OT but if as I suspect you find Starmer to be loony left then it might say something quite interesting about the SNP's voter base.

I find Starmer to be nearer the rabbid right than the loony left, adjacent to the chinless centrists.

 

[SteveG]

But...I don't think Labour is in a good place, as I just said. They're up against the worst government the UK has ever had and under any other leader etc. etc.

I'm still really interested in what it is about Labour's current direction you associate with lunacy. It might seem OT but if as I suspect you find Starmer to be loony left then it might say something quite interesting about the SNP's voter base.

I've got nothing against Starmer and think he's certainly the best choice there was for the Labour party. I pity the man though, due to the deep divides in the party which mean it seems to spend more time on internal strife and navel gazing that anything else. In times that we've badly needed a UK wide competent alternative to the Tories they've let us down badly, for example by supporting Tories over the manifest lunacy that is Brexit and also be being a complete non-entity during Covid.

 

[Brian]

Yawn

 

[Seanm]

I find Starmer to be nearer the rabbid right than the loony left, adjacent to the chinless centrists.

I'd have thought many others would too. I just wonder what's going to happen when the SNP have a freer hand with regard to implementing policy but find themselves having to satisfy people for whom Starmer's Labour are too far right and those who think they're Marxist lunatics.

I've got nothing against Starmer and think he's certainly the best choice there was for the Labour party. I pity the man though, due to the deep divides in the party which mean it seems to spend more time on internal strife and navel gazing that anything else. In times that we've badly needed a UK wide competent alternative to the Tories they've let us down badly, for example by supporting Tories over the manifest lunacy that is Brexit and also be being a complete non-entity during Covid.

I've missed this kind of thing!

 

[Colin L]

You see what happens when you don't feed the troll. They get sleepy. Bless!

 

[wacko]

Population of Scotland is 5.5m. Population of New Zealand is 5m. Can't see any reason why the Scots can't make an equally good job of running their own country.
In fact a reasonable percentage of Kiwis are of Scots descent.

 

[Brian]

You see what happens when you don't feed the troll. They get sleepy. Bless!

Not trolling at all, Colin. Never ceases to amaze me how some supposed grown bloke behave on the internet when someone simply disagrees with them.

Which bit of "I like Scotland and don't want to see it economically damaged" do you take issue with and regard as trolling?

 

[Tony L]

Yes, that's what I was getting at. Labour doesn't have to accept the argument for independence but, at the very least, it should show some comprehension of what's driving it. At the moment it looks like Labour is just burying its head in the sand, and hoping the issue will go away.

It would be interesting to go back in time and re-run the figures with a properly progressive/left Labour party, one that had stood very firmly against the disaster of Brexit, believed in PR etc. My suspicion is the SNP have utterly destroyed Labour because they are just a far more coherent, progressive and left-leaning party. The nationalist aspect can be viewed as being a very logical way to jettison unwanted and undemocratic Tory rule from Westminster and remain in the EU.

 

[droodzilla]

It would be interesting to go back in time and re-run the figures with a properly progressive/left Labour party, one that had stood very firmly against the disaster of Brexit, believed in PR etc. My suspicion is the SNP have utterly destroyed Labour because they are just a far more coherent, progressive and left-leaning party. The nationalist aspect can be viewed as being a very logical way to jettison unwanted and undemocratic Tory rule from Westminster and remain in the EU.

Labour's collapse in Scotland can be directly traced to them sharing a platform with the Tories when opposing independence. Even Brexit must, to some extent, be viewed through that lens as one of the key promises made during the independence campaign was that the UK would remain a member of the EU. Given how events have unfolded since then it's hard to see Labour coming back from that historic misjudgement, especially if they remain determined to pretend it never happened.

 

[Brian]

Labour's collapse in Scotland can be directly traced to them sharing a platform with the Tories when opposing independence. Even Brexit must, to some extent, be viewed through that lens as one of the key promises made during the independence campaign was that the UK would remain a member of the EU. Given how events have unfolded since then it's hard to see Labour coming back from that historic misjudgement, especially if they remain determined to pretend it never happened.

Obviously it is impossible for Labour to deliver on a promise of keeping the UK in the EU given in 2014 the Tories were the party in government and have since been re-elected 3 times. Unless people vote for Labour there isn't anything they can do. The opposition does not make government policy.

In 2014 opposing independence meant being in the same camp as the majority of voters in Scotland.

 

[Colin L]

As I recall it the yes vote was leading and then labour and Tories hatched “the pledge” and “the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the union”, both lies, which swayed the waverers. Droid has it right.