Scottish Independence - Court case lost

Good looking dog though at risk of being traumatised.

Meet the family dogs when I was a young lad..Robbie is the big ‘un.

 

Finally got a dog, then?

 

I do allow for it. I’ve lived in Scotland though not in 2014. I’ve also lived in a number of other regions of the UK.

 

Yup. It was a big deal at the time. And being taken out of the EU by voting in England remains a big deal.

 

Telling people to STFU and get back in their box, doesn't seem to work. Who'd a thunk it?

 

I can see where you are coming from but how would Scotland becoming independent "cut itself off" from markets in England? Is it not possible to trade across national borders? I am perhaps being naive and overly optimistic, but if two neighbouring, non EU, independent countries wished to trade with each other for the mutual benefit of both, why could they not make arrangements to do so?

Brexit was conducted in a rush, in bad faith and in a manner which produced "No Deal". Why rerun that way of doing things? Brexit was a backward-looking, sentimental, regressive, ideological act of self-harm. It could never have an economic, spiritual or political up-side for British people.
Independence for Scotland is motivated by a desire for a more progressive, inclusive, modern and representational democracy. It is a hopeful and forward-looking movement. I think that matters a lot.

If an iScotland did wish and manage to re-join the EU (it won't happen overnight) then the border issue would become more complicated and troublesome, probably affecting trade negatively. Might there be ways to resolve this? On the "pro" side would be frictionless trade opening up with 27 other countries. That has to be worth something.

Maybe a useful question is "Would an independent Scotland be investable?" (I think it would)

I tend to see Scottish Unionists and Brexiteers having far more in common with each other than the YES movement and Brexiteers. Maybe I am biased though. Certainly the "energy" they give off at their unionist celebrations appears similar to me:





photo upload site

 

Nice one! That’s got the attention of the right wing Brit press. I think SirKeir has done his bit too with his “I’ll tell you what you can and can’t have” approach to Scottish voters. That’s what saw them wiped off the map in Scotland with only one MP left standing.

 

I agree with this in so much as not enough time has elapsed since the last one. I understand how Brexit may have changed some Scott’s voters minds but this hasn’t made much of a difference in the opinion polls. If in 15 years time, the polls have consistently shown a 65/35 or more in favour, I think the pressure would force Westminster to agree to a referendum.

 

...voting in England and Wales.

Yes, everybody knows about this already despite efforts to pretend only people in Scotland are aware.

The referendum on Scotland leaving its biggest trading partner for 100’s of years was in 2014. The tories had a referendum on leaving the EU in its 2015 GE manifesto. In that 2015 GE, in Scotland there were 40 seats lost to Labour from previously 41. In what way did you think reducing Labour seats in that manner would help Labour to a majority over the tories? After all, no tory govt in 2015 = no EU referendum = no brexit.

...markets in the UK.

Substitute UK and EU for Scotland and England, the argument sounds the same and we know how that worked out. Just as the EU is bigger than the UK and calls the shots, the UK is bigger than Scotland and will call the shots.

Scotland leaving the UK is a rerun of brexit.

How would Scotland pay for the border? How long is an acceptable wait for joining the EU?

How long is an acceptable wait while being poorer? 50 years?

Yes, you’re biased. Scotland leaving the UK is based entirely on nationalism. Nothing else.

In 2016, 1,661,191 Scots voted to remain in the EU while 1,018,322 voted to leave. Both very significant numbers from 3.9 million who could have voted. Why do you ignore the voice of over 1 million people in Scotland with chants of ‘Scotland voted to remain in the EU’? Yes, a majority voted to remain but just like the +16m across the UK who should not be ignored, why should +1m people in Scotland be ignored? Nationalists never utter a word about those people. It’s as though they don’t exist.

As an aside, what are your thoughts on Scotland being dragged into the EEC against its wishes in 1975 by ‘England’ amid lies ahead of a UK referendum?

There is some interesting info and maps at the wiki link below for anyone genuinely interested in understanding things.

Source: Wiki

 

That and more - the electorate in Scotland can now see that the cycle of appalling Conservative governments with the occasional disappointing Labour one will never end. There's only one way to break out of this loop...

 

Now we've established that you DID know that the Tories used being chucked out of the EU if the voted YES in IndyRef. The answer to your question hinges in some part on that fact.

Some people voted NO to IndyRef because they did not want to be made to leave the EU. Now they'd have to vote yes as a result of that threat being turned into actual ejection by those who made the threat. How many votes that altered we don't know. But it seems unlikely that it was zero.

Thus a referendum would help clarify this rather better that assuming it makes no difference that people were told a lie about EU membership.

Rather than argue about this, let people make a choice and we can see. if you are correct the outcome will be what you expect.

 

Yeahbut no but it’s not respecting democracy™ for voters in Scotland to even be allowed to be asked how they wish to shape their own political future. The only thing that seems to obsess the Tory-Lab* political establishment more at the moment is whether Harry & Meghan should be stripped of their titles.

*only they know what’s best for us.

 

This could be a great way to secure the mass vote in the short term (and ensure a brain drain in the medium / long term). Some interesting comments!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-government-considering-income-tax-28687827

 

The Daily Ranger is just below the Daily Express in clickbait links that I won't fall for.

 

Amusing first paragraph. What has been established is your earlier assumption was nonsense and it's beyond you to simply apologise.

I'm not arguing, just stating facts vs your guesswork. If you don't like the numbers there isn't anything I can about it.

To be clear yet again, I'm happy enough for there to be another referendum, though it really is too soon after the last one. One thing I'm curious about is what would a referendum show I could be correct about?

 

I do realise that it's somewhat putting the cart before the horse, and I don't know if it would even be possible, but would it not be wise for Scotland to start talking to the EU now about membership? Getting the ground prepared ahead of time, as it were. It seems to me that separating from its major trading partner with only a "some day" hope of rejoining the EU is asking for a disaster, as I've said before, a rerun of the disaster called Brexit. The EU knows that Scotland would like to join, but that's as far as it goes, or, at the moment, can possibly go. Ideally, it would be a switch from one union to the other from one day to the next. And it probably belongs in the realms of science-fiction.

 

EFTA membership would be the ideal intermediary step to full EU membership, it is much easier to meet the conditions so could be completed much more quickly.

 

Would the EU be comfortable talking to part of a country that had decided to leave?

 

I doubt that the devolved Scottish government`s remit includes talking to the EU about future membership.

And vice versa.

 

It’s going to be far more efficient for us once England rejoins the single market, whether that precedes Scotland’s EU accession or comes around the same time.
Large swaths of England with a far higher population than Scotland are an economic basket case compared with Scotland.. Nothing has happened in the past 20 years politically to reverse that and despite the levelling up, northern powerhouse slogans, things have actually gone backwards and will continue to do so. Like Brexit ( which we never wanted) and the last Scottish independence referendum, a host of lies were used which have now been dragged into the daylight. Not getting out of the failed U.K. in 2014 and being dragged out of the EU has damaged our economy. It’s time for a different path, one joining a reunified Ireland back inside Europe.