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Scottish Independence - Court case lost

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Brian, Nov 23, 2022.

  1. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Actually, the mystery for me is the reason Brian doesn't understand the actual point I've explained.
    wulbert and gavreid like this.
  2. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans

    OK. If we consider the Scottish Parliament elections 2021, counting votes for SNP, Greens and Alba (apologies if I have missed other pro-independence parties) gives about:
    • 48.9% of the constituency vote, with a 63.5% turnout.
    • 50.2% of the regional vote, with a 63.5%
    Assuming everyone who voted for them wants independence, and that their vote is about independence, not who they think is best to run Scotland under existing devolved powers, then at best, it shows that 32% of the Scottish electorate were for it in 2021.
  3. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Disagreeing with you does not show a lack of understanding.

    Another mystery is why nationalists struggle so much with factual data relating to a general election.
  4. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Agreed. But your lack of showing you understand, does. :)

    Do you live in Scotland? If so, for how long?

    I've kept explaining what *actually* happened here in terms of the propaganda put out by the Tories, and its effect upon me and others. The lack in your responses is the failute to realise this happened. Specifically:

    The Tories *repeatedly* 'warned' during IndyRef that Scots Independence would mean Scotland would be ejected from the EU and not allowed back in. They threw up the problem Spain has with Catelonia as a reason why the EU would do this. Politically, it was a reasonable argument. Thus I know it affected my views, and via Scots media and talking to other here I know it affected other people as well.

    Are you denying all of the above para?
    tuga likes this.
  5. monkfish

    monkfish Grubby Tory enabler

    "Another mystery is why nationalists struggle so much with factual data relating to a general election."

    Another mystery is why you feel the need to post this sort of crap.
  6. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    I’m already aware of what the tories said, so it’s not news. It’s not as though I like or support the tories.

    Do you deny the GE figures are correct? They are from 2019, which is after the 2016 EU referendum. SNP support is shown in the results. Obviously the figures don’t show what nationalists would like, but it is what it is.
  7. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    There is nothing mysterious there at all, I quoted the reason with my post. I was replying to...
    Actually, the mystery for me is the reason Brian doesn't understand the actual point I've explained.
    ...which ignored the factual data from a general election.

    As to why do I post this stuff? I am from the UK, so believe I am entitled to an opinion on the matter and that opinion does not have to concur with yours.
    It is also to counter the false narrative the SNP is the dogs bollocks and that a majority of Scots wish to break up the UK. That might be the case at some point in time but the figures at the last GE suggest otherwise.

    I’m not alone in believing independence will be bad for Scotland and for the UK, as such I hope the nationalists do not win out on this. I am happy with the ruling of the Court. You may not like me or my pov, but I genuinely want what I believe is best for the UK and for Scotland.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
  8. monkfish

    monkfish Grubby Tory enabler

    I was referring to the crap about nationalists and data, I didn't need another load of crap.
  9. Peter Dyer

    Peter Dyer Active Member

    Since you're so good with numbers and I'm a bit dim, could you please tell me what percent of the Scottish electorate voted for pro union parties? Assuming of course that everyone who voted for them wants the union, and their vote is about the union.
    wulbert likes this.
  10. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    As Jim accused me of earlier, a lack of showing understanding shows there is a lack of understanding. :)

    You might be surprised at how much we agree on if you took a step back for a moment. I have a lot of sympathy with Scots wanting to see the back of the tories, assuming that’s what you really want. I want the same, I just prefer it for the entire UK.
  11. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    We know you're a Labour fan, but it is obvious that you support Tory Nationalist/Populist policies.
  12. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    OK, so you accept what I said about the way Tories used EU membership to deter voters choosing independence. How successful they were is hard to tell.

    I don't know one way or the other about the GE figures you gave. Your last line indiates why. Apples are not oranges. :)
  13. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Slighty more complex than that. You failed to take the point over *repeated* attempts to explain it. When I was in the 'ed biz' I decided that if I tried to explain something to an undergrad it was worth trying up to about three times, perhaps in different ways. After that I concluded it was a waste of effort to try again as they simply didn't "get it". Often I had no idea why, but it seemed like they'd already got a misleading assumption firmly entrenched, and that blocked them twigging.

    BTW I'll ask again: Did you live in Scotland at the time of IndyRef? If not, you may well have missed some of what the Tories tried on at the time as it was largely ignored in UK-wide media.
  14. MikeMA

    MikeMA pfm Member

    Surely the Supreme Court judgement simply reflects its interpretation of current UK legislation, not about whether the legislation is politically or morally just. I might be annoyed or disappointed with the outcome, but that's not the point is it?
    TheDecameron and Sue Pertwee-Tyr like this.
  15. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Do 'we'?

    I'm afraid it's obvious to you because it's what you want to believe for some reason. I don't support tory ideology or policies, nor do I support nationalism. :rolleyes:
  16. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Nicely patronising, as expected.

    I took your point first time, not only recently because its been said before. You clearly want to think I'm an idiot because I don't just nod in agreement.

    No, I did not live in Scotland in 2014. Are you suggesting it is required to live in a country to have an opinion? If so, where does that leave all of the folk with an opinion on brexit who don't reside in the UK?
  17. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans

    For both numbers it would be 100% minus the figure I quoted.

  18. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

  19. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Nope. As I have already explained: It means you may well have not seen the Tory assertions that may well have swayed the result. That in turn could explain why you fail to allow for it. As someone who lives in Scotland I can see both the 'Scottish' media and their 'UK' media - and can see how they differ.

    That is understandable. When I lived in London before I migrated I had no idea that even 'popular' (sic) 'UK' tabloids often ran very different content in Scotland. So not surprising if - even if they are aware of this - people 'down south' don't know what the different content *is* in Scotland on occasion.

    Similarly, I suspect most people in England, say, will generally watch 'BBC1' without looking for versions that differ in other parts of the UK. Let alone watch BBC Scotland.
  20. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Indeed. My view is that the point of the case was to illuminate - and get people talking about - the clear asymmetry in what is otherwise presented as a mutual choice agreement between equal partners. For the SNP pressing the case was in a sense 'win-win' because either getting permission *or* having it refused would give them a stick to wave. Indeed, I suspect the SNP *prefer* the outcome obtained to being allowed to do what they were demanding. Sturgeon give me the impression that she's a smart 'general'.
    MikeMA and TheDecameron like this.

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