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Schroder Model 2

Discussion in 'audio' started by Vinny, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. sonddek

    sonddek Trade: SUPATRAC

    Interesting - thank you. Of all these arms the 4point is the only one with what seems to be a square attempt at an ideal bearing. If the Schroder is a step higher in performance then there must be something about the job of a tonearm that I don't understand very well. The Schroder bearing seems to lack rigidity in the direction in which the cantilever pulls.

    But as others have said, theory is one thing, how it sounds is another.
     
  2. G T Audio

    G T Audio Trade: Manufacturer and Distributor

    The magnets are very powerful so the armwand does not move and it certainly doesn't lack rigidity.

    Clue: check out why classical instruments like violins and cellos sound better after hundreds of years than new ones...
     
  3. jagdesign

    jagdesign pfm Member

    Well this is a timely thread :)

    I'm in the process of building a Schroeder reference 'style' arm for my lockdown SP-10 project. This wouldn't be so accessible without Frank's willingness to support the DIY community (see diyaudio thread). Without question, there's an element of secret sauce in the assembly of his products, however, the beauty of the magnet/thread type arrangement is there is so much already out there on how to put something 'similar' together, and the construction relatively simple compared to other bearing arrangements.

    I'm hoping to have this up and running by the end of the month. If the lead time from Frank is an issue, and if you're relatively mechanically/DIY inclined, perhaps DIY is worth a go?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. sonddek

    sonddek Trade: SUPATRAC

    To my mind the ideal turntable does not add timbre, it reveals the timbre in the recording without fear or favour. I don't think your analogy is apposite.

    Surely the magnet would need to be the size of a fridge to stop all significant deflection in the direction of varying stylus tension. I accept that people say it sounds good, but a 20KHz wavelength is ~1/100th of a millimetre on track 5. Why not aim for no deflection response to that impulse?

    The Schroder design looks like a mitigated deflection design at best. I just don't get it. Why design an arm which allows movement in the time axis at all?

    I would dearly like to play with one of these to try to understand what I have failed to grasp.
     
  5. sq225917

    sq225917 Bit of this, bit of that

    Jag, speak to Joe, Sheffield not star trek, he built one.
     
  6. jagdesign

    jagdesign pfm Member

  7. G T Audio

    G T Audio Trade: Manufacturer and Distributor

    Who's to say the Schröder tonearm just allows the timbre in music to be heard and metal made tonearms do not?

    Seeing a Schröder is known as the world authority on tonearms I know who I would trust, plus having own several including 2 Reference SQ's (one made from Jacaranda and one from Snakewood) and having experienced other top tonearms including Thales, SAT, Rockport, Air Tangent and Kuzma Air Line, I know where my money would go.
     
  8. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed pfm Member

    Clever keyboard with an umlaut (I like it). You've just damned some arms which people would indeed give an arm for. I remember your opinion on Reed, but those on Phantoms and V12s surprises me a little. However, a cursory look at Schroder arms on Google a few weeks ago after mention on this thread gave me the impression that even the 12" variants were at the lower end of medium mass (say, 11 to 18 g?). Could be wrong though.

    My friend has a Phantom 9" with Lyra on his SME 20/3 and, although not an A-B comparison, much prefers it to the Five he still has on his Orbe with the same cart. The V12 has only 12g mass, which is very light for a 12", though I've no idea about the Phantom. Of course, Lyras love unipivots by all accounts, which be in the Phantom's favour here.
     
  9. G T Audio

    G T Audio Trade: Manufacturer and Distributor

    The arms mentioned are good if you hadn't experienced better. The same as VWs are good cars until you have experienced Mercedes or BMW. I used to sell Phantoms back in 2007 when they were the best generally available tonearm (much better than any modern SME) and if you couldn't wait to get a Schröder tonearm.

    Note: You can specify what cartridge you are using and Schröder will make an armtube specifically to match your cartridge. This is very important, especially with cartridges like the Miyajima range where you need an effective mass between 20-30 grams depending on model.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2020
    topoxforddoc and Mike Reed like this.
  10. yeti42

    yeti42 pfm Member

    I bought a new Reference about 3 years ago, via Ivan at Cool Gales, you get quite a few options, the wood is chosen to achieve the desired effective mass and there are three cartridge mounting plates available to tune it further I had the standard aluminium one but when I wanted to use a lower compliance SPU N series the brass one increase the EM by a further 5g. The options which I think may be unavailable on a 2 for fine adjustment of VTA and VTF have proved invaluable (does the fine azimuth adjuster reside in a 2’s counterweight?), the neutral balance option supposedly allows you to measure VTF above record height but I’m not sure this was worth it as it needs fine tuning by ear anyway, as does every other parameter. The magnet gap can’t be too wide or the arm loses focus, I used a strip cut from a fine business card as a feeler gauge, the standard ones are too thick, and it needs checking now and again but it’s easily done, the gap affects antiskate too and vice versa as you twist the thread to set it but twist too much and you increase the gap which reduces the effect of the twist. The tension of just about every user adjustable screw affects the sound and the general rule seems to be no tighter than just enough to hold, owning an Aro was good training for this.
    Is it all worth it? well I’m considering ordering another one of a different effective mass and I assume a 2 year wait but I wouldn’t go for a 2. The CB and Broadcast arm (if you can use the length) maybe but having used a Reference I doubt I could set a 2 precisely enough to get the performance out of it I know is in there, I’d want the wooden arm wand at very least.
     
  11. graystoke4

    graystoke4 pfm Member

    great thread, haven't had a TT, for some years but i have read every post, can we have a clearer photo or diagram as i can't see how this arm works thanks , top bearing
    more like this please,
     
  12. HansW

    HansW pfm Member

    Where would your money go, in order of preference?

    Interested but haven’t read enough of your posts to know.

    Best regards

    Hans
     
  13. gingermrkettle

    gingermrkettle Deep vein trombonist

    My sister has really quite a good violin from the mid 80s, a lot of the good Strads are a function of previous slow wood growth from volcanic activity. Not sure if that really has a relevance for tonearms?
     
    Darren likes this.
  14. Vinny

    Vinny pfm Member

    If you take a look at a photo' online, you will get a better idea. Basically, the wand and CBW assembly in total are restained by a thread, so no actual bearings, as such. Obviously the actual details of construction are far more complicated.
     
  15. graystoke4

    graystoke4 pfm Member

    exactly, what i thought i was seeing, but wouldn't the arm swing waver all over the place, would like to see one in action,
    i was a mechanical engineer years ago , but still love it,
     
  16. divedeepdog

    divedeepdog pfm Member

    I had a clone for a while, very strong magnets at the bottom pull the string tight enough so it doesn’t really wobble in use.

    The issue that I had, the VTF was very sensitive to VTA. The difference between an 80’s thin record and a modern 180g one could be 0.25g.
     
  17. graystoke4

    graystoke4 pfm Member

    hi dog happy Christmas , long time no see, what are yiu doing up at this hour ,,
     
  18. jagdesign

    jagdesign pfm Member

    I doubt the movement you mention was intentionally designed-in, but it's plausible there are positive 'by-products' with the degrees of freedom this arrangement allows. Perhaps it actually helps to maintain the desired SRA more than a conventional pivoting arm?

    Every design is ultimately a selection of compromises - nearly all of the feedback I have seen would suggest Frank has selected pretty wisely.

    @divedeepdog interesting to hear your comments regarding the VTA/VTF, I'd imagine this is part of the reason why the magnets are profiled on the Reference model, and also makes me think a longer effective length probably helps to alleviate this? How long was your clone?
     
  19. divedeepdog

    divedeepdog pfm Member

    @divedeepdog interesting to hear your comments regarding the VTA/VTF, I'd imagine this is part of the reason why the magnets are profiled on the Reference model, and also makes me think a longer effective length probably helps to alleviate this? How long was your clone?

    Rega geometry, the friend has made 12" too which he uses himself.
    Magnets are far beyond my scope of expertise, I can only comment from experience, guess anywhere off the horizontal plane alters the field of pull?

    With the introduction of the Funk cartridge thingamy, maybe there's an alternative to rigid, after all, its all compromise :)
     
  20. Vinny

    Vinny pfm Member

    Looks like the price has gone up by around 30% since before christmas, if my memory is correct.

    How are things going? Have you a working prototype yet?
     

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