SBL cross-over
- Thread starter divedeepdog
- Start date
PigletsDad
My intelligence test came back negative.
Nobody can. You have to host the image somewhere else (like flickr or imageshack) and link to that.
rontoolsie
pfm Member
The 1.5 uF Duelund caps are almost $400....EACH. The very highly rated TFTF V-Caps are about $270 each. The M-Cap Supreme Silver/Oil are about $80 each.
Here is what I would do..... get a pair of the Mundorfs and place them in the Tweeter network. Give them at LEAST 200 hours of run in time as they will sound quite dull and murky for several days or more. Once they have run in than ask yourself...would you be willing to pay a great deal more for a great deal more?
If the answer is yes...that get a pair of either the Duelunds or the V-caps and put them in the tweeter network. The 1.5uF Mundorfs could then be used to bypass the large electrolytic cap in the woofer network and nothing would go to waste.
I do not think it poor value for money to spend about as much on passive crossover components as you did for a used speaker as it quite easy to double the performance by doubling the costs...there are not to many other things that have such a linear price/performance ratio.
Here is what I would do..... get a pair of the Mundorfs and place them in the Tweeter network. Give them at LEAST 200 hours of run in time as they will sound quite dull and murky for several days or more. Once they have run in than ask yourself...would you be willing to pay a great deal more for a great deal more?
If the answer is yes...that get a pair of either the Duelunds or the V-caps and put them in the tweeter network. The 1.5uF Mundorfs could then be used to bypass the large electrolytic cap in the woofer network and nothing would go to waste.
I do not think it poor value for money to spend about as much on passive crossover components as you did for a used speaker as it quite easy to double the performance by doubling the costs...there are not to many other things that have such a linear price/performance ratio.
Sorry for slow response, work overload........
Ron,
Very tempting idea. Do you think Duelund caps are really worth it for SBL? They are ultra expensive. Or Mundorf Silver oil is already 95% of the Duelund caps?
Divedeepdog,
I will take some pics later on.
FYI I am using Hiquphon tweeters OWII, which my ears tell me they are much better compared to the old original ones.
So I’ve decided to upgrade my SBL crossovers along the lines of this thread
I took it a bit further by separating the LF and HF sections so that I could use my four mono Hackernaps to biamp.
Everything has gone really well and I now have a set of four boards to fit into a couple of wooden boxes...
HF board tracks marked out
Board etched and shiny tracks
Small and large holes marked out
HF board completed
LF board
Boards mounted together ready for boxing
But I’m away now for a week and a half so I’m going to have to wait a while to go forward with them. I hate waiting!
I took it a bit further by separating the LF and HF sections so that I could use my four mono Hackernaps to biamp.
Everything has gone really well and I now have a set of four boards to fit into a couple of wooden boxes...
HF board tracks marked out
Board etched and shiny tracks
Small and large holes marked out
HF board completed
LF board
Boards mounted together ready for boxing
But I’m away now for a week and a half so I’m going to have to wait a while to go forward with them. I hate waiting!
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Those are some beautifully constructed x/o you have there. Be prepared for some profound differences compared to the standard PXO's. If this turns out to your liking, then experiment with some even higher grade caps in the tweeter network (? those 1.5uF ones?). The Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil are pretty pricey at $100 each, but probably represent the upper limit of what you should invest. There are of course MUCH more expensive alternatives.
@rontoolsie Thanks. I’ll wait and see how good they are. Once I get a bit of spare cash I’ll see about further upgrades. How worthwhile do you think it might be to fit foil inductors for instance?
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Foil inductors have the potential for lower DCR (the value of which may be part of the design). The most linear inductors I have tried are the toroid ones....they are around $50-100 a piece, or much more if you get the Duelund ones. In the woofer circuit going to the toroid inductor really improved the snap and timing of the LF, which is a good thing for the SBLs.
For instance....https://www.parts-express.com/jantz...oil-toroidal-inductor-crossover-coil--255-808
For instance....https://www.parts-express.com/jantz...oil-toroidal-inductor-crossover-coil--255-808
warmgroove
New Member
Ron, I looked up these inductors on the Jantzen website and they state " The C-Coil is specifically designed for the bass section for crossovers and is not recommended for the mid-range or tweeter section." As the SBL has a bass/mid combination driver have you tried them in that type of configuration?
rontoolsie
pfm Member
This is because the DCR is much, much lower (a small fraction of an ohm) compared to an air or ferrite core conventional inductor. If the native DCR of the inductor coil has been dialed into the x/o design, this will change the transfer function of the x/o. But still the generic transfer function of the SBL x/o was HARDLY tweaked for the SBL and departing a few % from it will probably not make a huge difference...whereas improving the qualtity of the coils probably will. The cheap-as-chips ferrit core inductors in the SBL saturate at very low power levels, and cause huge non-linearities because of this.
If in doubt then get an air-coil for the midrange...this has many more turns (and hence a higher DCR) than the toroidal Jantzen ones. Maybe the best compromise is a tape wound coil for the mids/tweets (which are better than air or ferrite coils), and leave the toroid inductor for the bass network.
In the DBL x/o this is what I ended up with...a toroid on the bass network and tape wound inductors on the MR and HF.
If in doubt then get an air-coil for the midrange...this has many more turns (and hence a higher DCR) than the toroidal Jantzen ones. Maybe the best compromise is a tape wound coil for the mids/tweets (which are better than air or ferrite coils), and leave the toroid inductor for the bass network.
In the DBL x/o this is what I ended up with...a toroid on the bass network and tape wound inductors on the MR and HF.
warmgroove
New Member
Thanks Ron. Because its a 2 way design I am not sure which is the bass coil or which is the mid-range, the 700uh or 120uh? Both are in line and the only components in the signal path. I suspect the 120uh is the bass coil. Once clarified I will be good to order parts.
For the longer wiring from the new crossover box I consider the NACA5 quite stiff and feel they pull on the cabinets too much. I am considering some Duelund 12ga but not sure if they are a good match for Naim speakers. What seems to have worked best in place of the NACA5?
An acquaintance (who lives some distance away) has a CLIO passive crossover program. Would you suggest running the SBL through it or save the trip and stick to what is already known?
For the longer wiring from the new crossover box I consider the NACA5 quite stiff and feel they pull on the cabinets too much. I am considering some Duelund 12ga but not sure if they are a good match for Naim speakers. What seems to have worked best in place of the NACA5?
An acquaintance (who lives some distance away) has a CLIO passive crossover program. Would you suggest running the SBL through it or save the trip and stick to what is already known?
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Have a look at this....it appears BOTH the 700 AND the 120uH are doing LF duties....
PS..the Duelund speaker wires proably will be ok as they are individual runs. Giving them a couple twists per meter probably would loosely satisfy the L/C requirements. I'm actually thinking about trying a set myself, as by todays standards they are CHEAP.
PS..the Duelund speaker wires proably will be ok as they are individual runs. Giving them a couple twists per meter probably would loosely satisfy the L/C requirements. I'm actually thinking about trying a set myself, as by todays standards they are CHEAP.
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legroschien
pfm Member
legroschien
pfm Member
Hello John,
I have a pair of IBL crossovers in need of an upgrade.
Would you be willing to upgrade mine to a similar spec as yours?
I have a pair of IBL crossovers in need of an upgrade.
Would you be willing to upgrade mine to a similar spec as yours?
say it as it is
pfm Member
just catching up on this thread I was going to try active but seems a good amp and passive crossover can match an active set up?
divedeepdog
pfm Member
I thought so at the time. I swapped SBL's for Avondale speakers but still have soft spot for SBL's.
DSC_6028 by mark leatherland, on Flickr
to these
DSC_6037 by mark leatherland, on Flickr
DSC_6028 by mark leatherland, on Flickrto these
DSC_6037 by mark leatherland, on Flickr
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
Those tweeters are not the original 19mm units, and look suspiciously like the bigger Scan-speak 2905 series. I've always argued that the 8" mid woofer is better matched to a bigger tweeter. Was the XO tweaked to adjust for the new tweeters?
say it as it is
pfm Member
oh man tweeter and crossover changes ? so far have had to change the drivers I assumed the tweeters were ok always had doubts over the crossovers when I heard they were a stepping stone to active
divedeepdog
pfm Member
James, yes D2905’s. At that point I had the Audio42 crossover and it was the recommended unit. Took a bit of woodwork to fit. The new owner installed Hiquphon’s into his.
Say it as it is, diy is a minefield, Naim and Avondale’d a big one here because of its longevity. The trick is not to get distracted too much
Say it as it is, diy is a minefield, Naim and Avondale’d a big one here because of its longevity. The trick is not to get distracted too much
Don't worry about changing the tweeters. The problem James is alluding to, I think, is the dispersion issue of taking the 8" midwoofer up quite that high. That they work very well active shows that this doesn't have to be an issue.
I have used SBLs both active and passive with original crossover and passive with film caps. Active was easily the best but that was with a SNAXO. I see in another thread you were considering active with miniDSP but I think the miniDSP would be the limiting factor then and would stick to passive over that.
I have used SBLs both active and passive with original crossover and passive with film caps. Active was easily the best but that was with a SNAXO. I see in another thread you were considering active with miniDSP but I think the miniDSP would be the limiting factor then and would stick to passive over that.
poorcow
Member
Hello ALL,
Just got lucky and bought a pair of SBL MK2 with Hornslet cabinets.
After reading this thread multiple times, I am hoping to get some advice on how to get the best VFM by replacing the components with the appropriate “importance/relevance”.
Refering to John's (inschys) diagram:
1. Am I correct to think that the 2x 1.5uF bypass caps (C3 & C6) are less critical and something basic like Jantzen Cross Cap will do just fine (instead of ClarityCap CSA/Miflex MKP-14) that I plan to use elsewhere?
2. Is it worth spending more (ClarityCap CSA) on the 22uF, 4.7uF, and slightly less (Miflex MKP-14) on 12uF, 16uF, and 1.5uF (C4)?
All the inductors will be replaced with Jantzen Air Core.
3. As 135uH is not a standard value, I plan to ask the dealer to send photos of 130uH and 140uH side by side, work out the additional coils on the 140uH and unwind half to achieve 135uH. Would this work or am I being silly...?
4. I intend to replace the resistors (changing 1R to 2R and 27R to 20R respectively) with Mills MRA-10W, or will Ohmite Audio Gold be equally good?
Thank you for your input in advance.
Regards,
Cham
Just got lucky and bought a pair of SBL MK2 with Hornslet cabinets.
After reading this thread multiple times, I am hoping to get some advice on how to get the best VFM by replacing the components with the appropriate “importance/relevance”.
Refering to John's (inschys) diagram:
1. Am I correct to think that the 2x 1.5uF bypass caps (C3 & C6) are less critical and something basic like Jantzen Cross Cap will do just fine (instead of ClarityCap CSA/Miflex MKP-14) that I plan to use elsewhere?
2. Is it worth spending more (ClarityCap CSA) on the 22uF, 4.7uF, and slightly less (Miflex MKP-14) on 12uF, 16uF, and 1.5uF (C4)?
All the inductors will be replaced with Jantzen Air Core.
3. As 135uH is not a standard value, I plan to ask the dealer to send photos of 130uH and 140uH side by side, work out the additional coils on the 140uH and unwind half to achieve 135uH. Would this work or am I being silly...?
4. I intend to replace the resistors (changing 1R to 2R and 27R to 20R respectively) with Mills MRA-10W, or will Ohmite Audio Gold be equally good?
Thank you for your input in advance.
Regards,
Cham