RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
molee, was just about to send you a PM with the address. Thanks for the reminder.
Kit
Kit
Ryan Sound Lab Naim Preamp Plug-Ins Loaner Set
- Thread starter RyanSoundLab
- Start date
Just wanted to post the feedback I gave Kit on using the boards for a while:
"Just wanted to give you an update on how the boards are performing now they have been in use for a while.
They have exceeded my expectations and hugely added to my enjoyment of
recorded music. I have an Atlantic Collection that goes from their early
days to the early 1980s and the thing that's amazed me is how good their
earlier recordings are. Let the Good Times Roll by Ray Charles now has so
much more clarity and energy, particularly, from his band, that I can really
feel the good times rolling. On the slightly later recordings the whistling
on Sitting on the Dock of the Bay is now clearly produced by a pair of lips
I can now imagine moving before my very eyes.
Ricky Lee Jones's Easy Money is now even more of a favourite now I can see
the bass strings being plucked and pick up all of the nuances of her
wonderful vocal delivery. Miles's Bitches Brew was always a piece I found
it hard to listen to in full in one sitting but now I can pick up all the
rhythmic clues and fine variations in tone it is now much easier to enjoy
rather than just be impressed by. My bother has a quite expensive McIntosh
amplifier setup and Stevie Wonder's great albums don't have the rhythmic and
musical drive, particularly in the mid bass, that my system now has. I also
feel that I'm now getting all of Frank Sinatra's wonderful voice including
the chest tones as exemplified on Blues in the Night.
As far as classical music goes two of my favourite pieces are Beethoven's
Seventh Symphony and the original piano score of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an
Exhibition. I found it much easier to pick out and follow the flow and
development of Beethoven's music across the entire orchestra. I have a
piano in my house, if only an upright, so I know how impactful the full
attack and body of a piano can be. Given the inescapable limitations of a
small standmount set of speakers I felt I was getting much closer to the
real thing than I have ever heard from my system. I've even re-lived my
youth by playing some old Yes CDs and their musical virtuosity shone through
more than I remember.
I could make similar comments about any of the CDs I've re-discovered
recently and I'm now happy enough with my system that extending my music
catalogue is now my priority.
The small price I've had to pay to acquire some of your skill and expertise
is proving to be one of the best investments I've ever made.
Many Thanks"
I have been using the Z250V, Z450 and Z301 boards in a 32.5 with a NAP250 that has been given an excellent service by Sean at Custom HiFi Cables in Leeds with one of CHC-CAP power supplies.
"Just wanted to give you an update on how the boards are performing now they have been in use for a while.
They have exceeded my expectations and hugely added to my enjoyment of
recorded music. I have an Atlantic Collection that goes from their early
days to the early 1980s and the thing that's amazed me is how good their
earlier recordings are. Let the Good Times Roll by Ray Charles now has so
much more clarity and energy, particularly, from his band, that I can really
feel the good times rolling. On the slightly later recordings the whistling
on Sitting on the Dock of the Bay is now clearly produced by a pair of lips
I can now imagine moving before my very eyes.
Ricky Lee Jones's Easy Money is now even more of a favourite now I can see
the bass strings being plucked and pick up all of the nuances of her
wonderful vocal delivery. Miles's Bitches Brew was always a piece I found
it hard to listen to in full in one sitting but now I can pick up all the
rhythmic clues and fine variations in tone it is now much easier to enjoy
rather than just be impressed by. My bother has a quite expensive McIntosh
amplifier setup and Stevie Wonder's great albums don't have the rhythmic and
musical drive, particularly in the mid bass, that my system now has. I also
feel that I'm now getting all of Frank Sinatra's wonderful voice including
the chest tones as exemplified on Blues in the Night.
As far as classical music goes two of my favourite pieces are Beethoven's
Seventh Symphony and the original piano score of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an
Exhibition. I found it much easier to pick out and follow the flow and
development of Beethoven's music across the entire orchestra. I have a
piano in my house, if only an upright, so I know how impactful the full
attack and body of a piano can be. Given the inescapable limitations of a
small standmount set of speakers I felt I was getting much closer to the
real thing than I have ever heard from my system. I've even re-lived my
youth by playing some old Yes CDs and their musical virtuosity shone through
more than I remember.
I could make similar comments about any of the CDs I've re-discovered
recently and I'm now happy enough with my system that extending my music
catalogue is now my priority.
The small price I've had to pay to acquire some of your skill and expertise
is proving to be one of the best investments I've ever made.
Many Thanks"
I have been using the Z250V, Z450 and Z301 boards in a 32.5 with a NAP250 that has been given an excellent service by Sean at Custom HiFi Cables in Leeds with one of CHC-CAP power supplies.
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
UKRoss,
Thanks so much for your comments, especially the specifics of how the music sounds. Our years must overlap a lot because I have many of the same recordings and agree that the old ones were made so much better than we ever thought. For example, Miles Davis' Seven Steps to Heaven (1963) has an incredible bass line where every pluck of every string is so clear. And much more, of course. Now that I just got my Arkiv re-tipped, I'm going to listen to a whole bunch of older records, including the fantastic Yes album. Great that you can now just sit down and really enjoy your system!
Best regards,
Kit
Thanks so much for your comments, especially the specifics of how the music sounds. Our years must overlap a lot because I have many of the same recordings and agree that the old ones were made so much better than we ever thought. For example, Miles Davis' Seven Steps to Heaven (1963) has an incredible bass line where every pluck of every string is so clear. And much more, of course. Now that I just got my Arkiv re-tipped, I'm going to listen to a whole bunch of older records, including the fantastic Yes album. Great that you can now just sit down and really enjoy your system!
Best regards,
Kit
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
Dear all,
The RSL phono board loaner routing is nearly complete. The MC boards are on their way right now to Rosewind as their next-to-final stop. The MM boards have finished routing. If there are any newcomers who want to listen, please drop me a PM and we'll set it up.
I appreciate all those who participated and hope you enjoyed them.
Best regards,
Kit
The RSL phono board loaner routing is nearly complete. The MC boards are on their way right now to Rosewind as their next-to-final stop. The MM boards have finished routing. If there are any newcomers who want to listen, please drop me a PM and we'll set it up.
I appreciate all those who participated and hope you enjoyed them.
Best regards,
Kit
Rosewind
Lost in Translation
Yes Kit, I have had them sitting in their box for a while but they are now in use in my Nac 32.5 against what I believe is a standard Na 323 s-card. I will have to double-check tomorrow.
My set-up is:
Nac 32.5 (with 729 pre-amp cards) + Snaps (dual railed) + Nap 160 + Rogers LS2. All the black boxes are in fine nick and all in all they sound much better than they have any right to. That is good. It is a long time since I listened for hours to vinyl and I must say I am enjoying it. The Beatles, Willie Nile, Shriekback, Leonard Cohen, Blumfeld, Van Morrison have been spinning. Nice.
Both sets of boards are in similarly placed slots with BNC connectors. I also have a third much more expensive external phono stage at hand, but I will leave that out of the equation.
I will try to write more in a few days when I have trained my ears to listen to vinyl again. My head is spinning from all that exposure to revolving records.
Kind regards,
Peter
My set-up is:
Nac 32.5 (with 729 pre-amp cards) + Snaps (dual railed) + Nap 160 + Rogers LS2. All the black boxes are in fine nick and all in all they sound much better than they have any right to. That is good. It is a long time since I listened for hours to vinyl and I must say I am enjoying it. The Beatles, Willie Nile, Shriekback, Leonard Cohen, Blumfeld, Van Morrison have been spinning. Nice.
Both sets of boards are in similarly placed slots with BNC connectors. I also have a third much more expensive external phono stage at hand, but I will leave that out of the equation.
I will try to write more in a few days when I have trained my ears to listen to vinyl again. My head is spinning from all that exposure to revolving records.
Kind regards,
Peter
Rosewind
Lost in Translation
I ended up listened to the RSL Z150 (thin film) MC boards in a Nac 32.5 + Snaps + BD Nap 160 (white button one with Hicap psu inside) + Amphion Argon 3L-floor-speakers. The 32.5 had 729 preamp boards in and a set of NA 323 S boards for comparison. Both the RSL MC boards and the NA 323 boards were placed in two slots leading to two sets of BNC connectors on the back. I usend a Thorens TD160 MK II (modified to Super level) + Morch UP-4 with Denon 103R.
I tried to level match as best I could and the following statements are both based on extensive non-intense listening to many records that I hadn't listened to for ages and two intese listening sessions to Leonard Cohen's "Take this Waltz" and Van Morrison's "Moondance" and "Into the Mystic."
NA 323 s-cards: Good sense of flow and musicality, seperate nstruments heard but not fleshed out much from each other - they sort of overlap, Morrison's voice a bit hard and shouty at times.
RSL Z150 boards: Much better presentation and outline of bass notes - that was the first thing I noticed at the beginning of "Into the Mystic." Morrrion's voice was much better defined and smoother without losing a hint of realistic sharpness. All instruments now stepped out from each other's shade and were better seperated in the musical space. I noticed how the percussion and horns were quite a lot easier to follow as they weaved through the song, and how the piano notes sounded sweet and enjoyable on the left hand side of the sound stage.
There is no doubt that if I wanted to use internal boards to keep the box count down, I would take these cards over the Naim ones every time!
I will send the boards off tomorrow, Kit. Thanks for letting me loan them!
Kind regards,
Peter
I tried to level match as best I could and the following statements are both based on extensive non-intense listening to many records that I hadn't listened to for ages and two intese listening sessions to Leonard Cohen's "Take this Waltz" and Van Morrison's "Moondance" and "Into the Mystic."
NA 323 s-cards: Good sense of flow and musicality, seperate nstruments heard but not fleshed out much from each other - they sort of overlap, Morrison's voice a bit hard and shouty at times.
RSL Z150 boards: Much better presentation and outline of bass notes - that was the first thing I noticed at the beginning of "Into the Mystic." Morrrion's voice was much better defined and smoother without losing a hint of realistic sharpness. All instruments now stepped out from each other's shade and were better seperated in the musical space. I noticed how the percussion and horns were quite a lot easier to follow as they weaved through the song, and how the piano notes sounded sweet and enjoyable on the left hand side of the sound stage.
There is no doubt that if I wanted to use internal boards to keep the box count down, I would take these cards over the Naim ones every time!
I will send the boards off tomorrow, Kit. Thanks for letting me loan them!
Kind regards,
Peter
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
Peter
Appreciate the thoughtful review and good description of the differences. I hear similar things on both LP and cd. I don't pretend to compete with external phono boxes but I use the Z150's in my own system and like them just fine. Happy listening!
Kit
Appreciate the thoughtful review and good description of the differences. I hear similar things on both LP and cd. I don't pretend to compete with external phono boxes but I use the Z150's in my own system and like them just fine. Happy listening!
Kit
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
Dennis,
OK - here's what I can say. At a friend's urging, I started working on a full preamp over a year ago. I thought I had a really neat circuit design and built a prototype only to find out that it didn't measure up. That was last September. Since then I have re-designed and re-built the prototype preamp to the point that I am now satisfied. It clearly outperforms an RSL 72 (my evaluation) while being able to reuse the same RSL plug-in boards. The hard work ahead is more related to all the hardware parts: cabinets, knobs, transformers, shipping boxes, etc, etc. It's a lot bigger project than just plug-in boards but slowly I have been addressing each of these issues and am getting very close to building prototypes that can be used as loaners. One of these loaners is going to go to the UK, of course (but I'm not taking names just yet).
Some of the features that the RSL Preamp will have include:
1. Separate preamp and power supply
2. Plug-in boards for the main circuitry completely compatible with Naim/RSL pins.
3. Remote volume control, remote mute, remote mono functions. Mute and Mono switches use relays for activation rather than switches.
4. 4 inputs, one which has plug-in slots for phono boards or jumpers to make it a line input. The 2nd input, normally for CD/DAC input, will have an attenuation jumper that can select either no attenuation or about -12db so that the loudness of the CD input can better match a phono input.
5. Outputs will include the normal Naim DIN connection (via the power supply) plus a pair of RCA outputs for non-Naim systems. A line level output is also anticipated (similar to the Tape Out - bypasses the volume control).
More features will come out over time. One thing I want to do is allow people who have already purchased RSL boards to be able to re-use them in this preamp if they want and save money, so there will be some kind of "bare bones" option with just a motherboard in it (but with remote control).
The power supply will be similar to Naim's Hi-Cap in architecture ( but 2 x 25v instead of 2 x 24v) and uses the same 5-pin DIN connector, too, but have better regulators in it so it sounds better. You'll be able to use your own HiCap, modified or not, or an Avondale power supply (e.g. TPX2) if you want but I can't promise the ultimate performance with those. Still, it's a way for people to "build their own" and add to it over time.
As you can see, this is a major undertaking for a one-person company and I won't be flooding the market with lots of ads or even lots of stock. PFM will be the first place for announcements, however, and I'll try to keep you informed of progress but I can't promise exactly when it will be "done". For example, I just got the final circuit boards today but haven't tried to assemble them yet. I also don't yet have the control knobs (they're on special order). It's amazing how complex this is.
I appreciate all the interest and support from you loyal and devoted customers. I hope this works out well for us all.
Best regards,
Kit
OK - here's what I can say. At a friend's urging, I started working on a full preamp over a year ago. I thought I had a really neat circuit design and built a prototype only to find out that it didn't measure up. That was last September. Since then I have re-designed and re-built the prototype preamp to the point that I am now satisfied. It clearly outperforms an RSL 72 (my evaluation) while being able to reuse the same RSL plug-in boards. The hard work ahead is more related to all the hardware parts: cabinets, knobs, transformers, shipping boxes, etc, etc. It's a lot bigger project than just plug-in boards but slowly I have been addressing each of these issues and am getting very close to building prototypes that can be used as loaners. One of these loaners is going to go to the UK, of course (but I'm not taking names just yet).
Some of the features that the RSL Preamp will have include:
1. Separate preamp and power supply
2. Plug-in boards for the main circuitry completely compatible with Naim/RSL pins.
3. Remote volume control, remote mute, remote mono functions. Mute and Mono switches use relays for activation rather than switches.
4. 4 inputs, one which has plug-in slots for phono boards or jumpers to make it a line input. The 2nd input, normally for CD/DAC input, will have an attenuation jumper that can select either no attenuation or about -12db so that the loudness of the CD input can better match a phono input.
5. Outputs will include the normal Naim DIN connection (via the power supply) plus a pair of RCA outputs for non-Naim systems. A line level output is also anticipated (similar to the Tape Out - bypasses the volume control).
More features will come out over time. One thing I want to do is allow people who have already purchased RSL boards to be able to re-use them in this preamp if they want and save money, so there will be some kind of "bare bones" option with just a motherboard in it (but with remote control).
The power supply will be similar to Naim's Hi-Cap in architecture ( but 2 x 25v instead of 2 x 24v) and uses the same 5-pin DIN connector, too, but have better regulators in it so it sounds better. You'll be able to use your own HiCap, modified or not, or an Avondale power supply (e.g. TPX2) if you want but I can't promise the ultimate performance with those. Still, it's a way for people to "build their own" and add to it over time.
As you can see, this is a major undertaking for a one-person company and I won't be flooding the market with lots of ads or even lots of stock. PFM will be the first place for announcements, however, and I'll try to keep you informed of progress but I can't promise exactly when it will be "done". For example, I just got the final circuit boards today but haven't tried to assemble them yet. I also don't yet have the control knobs (they're on special order). It's amazing how complex this is.
I appreciate all the interest and support from you loyal and devoted customers. I hope this works out well for us all.
Best regards,
Kit
OK I hear you.. When you are closer to the finished project let us know and any further up dates..
Your drop in cards are Nil Secundus as we say up north and have more than a splash of magic..
The effect they have on the older Naim 32.5 which I have and I believe 32 62 and 72's is more than stunning and has just got to be heard to be believed..
It equals if not betters my 82 with its pots 8 and 2 hicaps..
Den
Your drop in cards are Nil Secundus as we say up north and have more than a splash of magic..
The effect they have on the older Naim 32.5 which I have and I believe 32 62 and 72's is more than stunning and has just got to be heard to be believed..
It equals if not betters my 82 with its pots 8 and 2 hicaps..
Den
This is what I found, having inherited my Father's 82:
RSL72 is better than 82 with one hicap, just about equal or maybe marginally better than 82 with two hicaps.
_webwasher
pfm Member
+1
I equipped my 32.5 a few weeks ago with Kit's boards including the mm phono. it's just amazing how good this pre sounds. it's partnered with nap 250 (and sometimes 160), lp12 and tpr4 hc. remote control is the icing on the cake. I spend a lot more time to listen to this set than to my main Hifi in the living room....
I equipped my 32.5 a few weeks ago with Kit's boards including the mm phono. it's just amazing how good this pre sounds. it's partnered with nap 250 (and sometimes 160), lp12 and tpr4 hc. remote control is the icing on the cake. I spend a lot more time to listen to this set than to my main Hifi in the living room....
Jo Sharp
Pulls on doors marked push
Kit, It would be good to have flexible power supply options, maybe using jumper connections. E.g to disable the built in PSU and use an external PSU with separate power lines to each card/circuit section in the same way as the Naim NAC 52.
This is, I think, the only drawback of the RSL cards in a 72 - they are sharing PSU lines.
Good luck with the project
Jo
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
Jo
Maybe I didn't describe everything very well previously but your suggestion of separate power supplies is actually a part of the preamp design. Here's how it works: the external power supply is similar to a Hi-Cap (only with much better regulators) in putting out two V+ lines to the preamp. Within the preamp, on the motherboard itself, are 3 more regulators, one for each pair of boards (phono, time-aligned filters, and output boards). This is actually better than the 52 approach in that the regulators are in series with the power supply's regulators so the smoothing and regulation is improved, plus the motherboard regulators are right next to the boards they are supplying rather than being about a meter away down a long cable. There is also the 3rd set of regulators (again in series) actually on the board themselves, same as you already have. I have to say that, after comparing this setup to an RSL 72, there is a distinct improvement in the clarity and dynamics.
I think we're all after the same nirvana and I wouldn't put out anything that wasn't better than everything I know about so far (what would be the point?). I'm hoping to get a prototype and/or early production model out there on a loaner program after I get final feedback from a couple of independent sources that it's as good as I think it is. Please be patient - I'll announce something when it's ready.
Best regards,
Kit
Maybe I didn't describe everything very well previously but your suggestion of separate power supplies is actually a part of the preamp design. Here's how it works: the external power supply is similar to a Hi-Cap (only with much better regulators) in putting out two V+ lines to the preamp. Within the preamp, on the motherboard itself, are 3 more regulators, one for each pair of boards (phono, time-aligned filters, and output boards). This is actually better than the 52 approach in that the regulators are in series with the power supply's regulators so the smoothing and regulation is improved, plus the motherboard regulators are right next to the boards they are supplying rather than being about a meter away down a long cable. There is also the 3rd set of regulators (again in series) actually on the board themselves, same as you already have. I have to say that, after comparing this setup to an RSL 72, there is a distinct improvement in the clarity and dynamics.
I think we're all after the same nirvana and I wouldn't put out anything that wasn't better than everything I know about so far (what would be the point?). I'm hoping to get a prototype and/or early production model out there on a loaner program after I get final feedback from a couple of independent sources that it's as good as I think it is. Please be patient - I'll announce something when it's ready.
Best regards,
Kit
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
The motherboard has a star ground system with a very wide trace from the power supply connection at the left back to the center of the star in the middle of the board. Blue are generally ground traces on the bottom of the board, red are generally signal or power traces on the top. Every circuit has its own ground trace from the star, including separate grounds for left and right channels. You can also see the plug-in spots for phono, time-aligned filters, and output boards, which will be compatible with previous RSL boards (and Naim, too).
The input selector relays are center/rear. The 3 power regulators are toward the front with U-shaped heat sinks.
Here's a glimpse of the layout (this is a prototype board and may change a little in the final):
So just to reiterate, there are three regulator levels in series: One in the power supply, one on the motherboard (above), and a third one on each plug-in board. Actually, some of the plug-in boards have two regulators, one for each gain stage. I'm keeping Linear Technology in business all by myself!
Enjoy.
Kit
The input selector relays are center/rear. The 3 power regulators are toward the front with U-shaped heat sinks.
Here's a glimpse of the layout (this is a prototype board and may change a little in the final):
So just to reiterate, there are three regulator levels in series: One in the power supply, one on the motherboard (above), and a third one on each plug-in board. Actually, some of the plug-in boards have two regulators, one for each gain stage. I'm keeping Linear Technology in business all by myself!
Enjoy.
Kit
Jo Sharp
Pulls on doors marked push
That is looking very impressive, Kit!
out of interest, have you tried comparing the on-board regs having their 0v lines connected on the circuit board they are powering vs taking their 0V lines back to the star earth? i.e. separate to the signal 0V line to the star earth.
out of interest, have you tried comparing the on-board regs having their 0v lines connected on the circuit board they are powering vs taking their 0V lines back to the star earth? i.e. separate to the signal 0V line to the star earth.
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
Jo,
No I didn't try that one. I did try having the grounds from the volume control go back to either the time-aligned filter boards or the output boards but I couldn't hear the difference (not that there wasn't any but I just couldn't hear it). As you can imagine, there are hundreds of individual possibilities which, when combined, give you a near-infinite number of variations that could be tried. Each one takes both time and money so you have to decide when you've gotten something good enough. The overall effect of the configuration below is still quite noticeable already, so it'll have to be a future (way out future) project.
Best regards,
Kit
No I didn't try that one. I did try having the grounds from the volume control go back to either the time-aligned filter boards or the output boards but I couldn't hear the difference (not that there wasn't any but I just couldn't hear it). As you can imagine, there are hundreds of individual possibilities which, when combined, give you a near-infinite number of variations that could be tried. Each one takes both time and money so you have to decide when you've gotten something good enough. The overall effect of the configuration below is still quite noticeable already, so it'll have to be a future (way out future) project.
Best regards,
Kit
Kit
Thanks for the advice re the Z301 boards being able to go in either way.
They now fit the Naim Nac 12s well..
The sound stage has opened up and tracking instruments is incredible.
Where as before it was on a different level..
Rather like opening a curtain or veil..More noticeable.
The over all involvement of the music is so much more enjoyable..
Have tried to do a comparison with my Nac 32.5 but would require spare drop in cards..
Love what you are doing..
Who would have thought my 12.s could sound so good..
Thanks for the advice re the Z301 boards being able to go in either way.
They now fit the Naim Nac 12s well..
The sound stage has opened up and tracking instruments is incredible.
Where as before it was on a different level..
Rather like opening a curtain or veil..More noticeable.
The over all involvement of the music is so much more enjoyable..
Have tried to do a comparison with my Nac 32.5 but would require spare drop in cards..
Love what you are doing..
Who would have thought my 12.s could sound so good..