No, and that is one of the problems here. However, viability outside the mother's body isn't a bad starting point in this case as far as I am concerned... (but of course the subsequent decade-and-a-half of dependency afterwards should not be discounted either...)
Roe vs Wade overturned
- Thread starter Joco
- Start date
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
If you declare that any collection of cells that is potentially viable is life and should be protected at all costs*, then if you are not also a vegan you are very close to being a hypocrite.
*even, apparently, at the cost of the proven viable life of the mother
*even, apparently, at the cost of the proven viable life of the mother
Tony L
Administrator
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Doesn't chemotherapy fall foul of this?
What about antibiotics?
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Well exactly. So why should a cluster of cells that isn’t sentient, but might potentially be a person at some time, have special status.
droodzilla
pfm Member
I guess the religious view (or, rather, one religious view) is that the soul is present from the moment of conception.
I don't agree, of course, but it would be intereesting to know where ragadude stands. I mean, there is at least a measure of logical consistency in the religious take, even if its premises are flawed. In contrast, ragadude's position seems inconsistent and poorly thought out.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Islam sets ensoulment at 120 days
“Verily, the creation of one of you is brought together in the mother's womb for forty days in the form of a drop (nutfah), then he becomes a clot ('alaqah) for a like period, then a lump for a like period, then there is sent an angel who blows the soul into him.”
“Verily, the creation of one of you is brought together in the mother's womb for forty days in the form of a drop (nutfah), then he becomes a clot ('alaqah) for a like period, then a lump for a like period, then there is sent an angel who blows the soul into him.”
kensalriser
pfm Member
The Supreme Court can no lo
Is there any sort of consensus on abortion in the Islamic world?
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Generally considered wrong, but permitted to save the mothers life eg ectopic pregnancy
I am alarmed by this ruling because you just know that they are going to rush down the Christian white fundamentalism is the only allowed way path.
The USA was founded by religious bigots and they have long history of how they treated the natives, slaves, alleged witches and so on.
Very true, and the view also doesn’t seem to take into account the, probably significant, percentage of fertilised ova that fail to implant and develop. That is a large number of souls to mourn or to make you reconsider your religion if every one of those is a lost life.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
And what about all the little swimmers that never make it upstream? Can we please have some thoughts and prayers for them?
Thinking back to my teen years, I now feel like a mass murderer.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Who is qualified to define it?
Perceptive stuff for 1,400 years ago.
No there isn't. That's part of the problem. It depends who you ask, but there's an argument that once an ovum is fertilised, you have human life that is distinct from the parent. In the UK we define the date as "capable of *independent* life outside the mother" but that's muddied now because there have been premature babies born that have survived, and they have been born before the cut-off point for a legal abortion in the UK.
Not if you are only talking about human life. Man was given dominion over the animals, remember, if you believe that stuff.
No, because chemo doesn't kill a different human life, it just kills part of that living thing. You could say the same for clipping your nails. Antibiotics only kill bacteria. They're not human.
If they die of their own accord, that's nature's (God's, if you like) way. Humans haven't intervened. In the same way if a 5 year old child dies of its own accord, that's just a sad death. If humans intervene, it's murder.
Anyone who understands biology.
Well, the Islamic world was the centre of scientific knowledge at one point. It hasn't always been hijacked by extremists and misogynists.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Indeed. The learning of the Medieval Islamic world fed directly into the Renaissance in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
That’s a comforting assumption. What if they die because the mother - not knowing she might be pregnant - has a few glasses of wine, or eats something or takes an over the counter drug that affects the cervical mucous? Or has a session on a trampoline, overenthusiastic sex or any other activity that might affect implantation? Its the grey area like this that destroy the ‘it’s a life to be protected from the moment of conception’ attitude.
There are about 2 billion Muslims. The percentage of 'extremists and misogynists' will not be much different to any other very large group of people. Like Trump supporters
This is all covered in existing "intent" considerations in law. It doesn't " destroy" any arguments, to say it does is facile.