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RFI : how does it affect mains circuitry of hifi equipment?

As I recall the RA sponsored research showed a small level of rejection at very high frequencies (well above the audio band) so it's a bit of a leap of faith to say the case is proven. It can probably be shown that insects striking the windscreen infinitesimally slows the car but that doesn't mean that such a problem is of relevance.

I love this analogy, and shall plagiarise it shamelessly.
BTW I do make up my mains leads using shielded cable , shield earthed at the supply end. I suspect the only difference it will make is to attract the loss adjusters attention if my house burns down.
 
Ragaman, I don't really care that much one way or the other. You say my recollection is incorrect well let's see your evidence to support that claim. The company carried on advertising their cable because they modified the way they promoted their claims. I'm sorry but I have no interest in contacting RA on this matter - so far your claim is an unsupported by evidence as mine is but the difference is I'm not claiming case proven.
The lab tests did show the cable removed rfi, things need to move on from this evidence as I have stated in the op.
 
John,

This is simply not true - most PSU have practically ZERO isolation at higher frequency where even a few pF of capacitive coupling is all you need to act a signal path between domains.

True for linear/unregulated power supplies, but not SMPSs.

A typical PSU is not a defence against any level of RF, this is left to localised RF decoupling - which is typically not considered in most audio designs.

But that kind of RF enters the system directly, not via the power cord.
 
John,



True for linear/unregulated power supplies, but not SMPSs.



But that kind of RF enters the system directly, not via the power cord.
How does this kind of RFI enter the component directly?

I just want to say the reason I have opened this thread is I have no scientific knowledge or training when it comes to electrical systems of hifi gear so if I ask a question it is purely down to wanting to know the answer, as with this post, it is not to suggest I already know the answer & simply want to poke or aggravate.
 
The lab tests did show the cable removed rfi, things need to move on from this evidence as I have stated in the op.

At what frequency and to what extent? I'm sorry, but if the relevance of these questions elludes you then I think we do indeed need to 'move on'.

Look, if you measure closely enough all manner of cause and effect can be shown, but these measurements have to viewed in context - just because something has been shown/measured to take place at some level doesn't necessarily mean it is an issue.
 
So far I have not seen any actual evidence - only anecdotal references.
The lab results were presented to asa, if the lab results did not back up the ad that rfi can be removed with this cable the ad would have been removed, simples.
 
At what frequency and to what extent? I'm sorry, but if the relevance of these questions elludes you then I think we do indeed need to 'move on'.
If the lab results were not inline with the claims on the ad the ad would have been removed, it is still in place, take a look at the ad for yourself, whatever the ad claims it was proven by the lab & the subsequent results passed on to asa for review, after they reviewed the results they agreed that the claims were correct & allowed to keep the ad in place, what more proof do you want, if you know anything about law, you will know, if the ad made false claims asa would have removed it as was the case originally after the complaint until the company asked an independent lab to test 3 cables & have the results reviewed by asa.
 
The wording of the adds was altered - but I already made that point. The problem the ASA had was with the way the claims were represented/worded. How do you think skin cream manufacturers get away with saying their product makes you look younger? The point is they only say it makes you LOOK younger, not that your skin is literally made younger.

Sorry, if you have an advertisement that you feel supports your statements then please link to it.

To be honest, if you are unwilling to address the content and context questions I have raised then I would question how much actual investigation you are interested in pursuing.
 
If the lab results were not inline with the claims on the ad the ad would have been removed, it is still in place, take a look at the ad for yourself, whatever the ad claims it was proven by the lab & the subsequent results passed on to asa for review, after they reviewed the results they agreed that the claims were correct & allowed to keep the ad in place, what more proof do you want, if you know anything about law, you will know, if the ad made false claims asa would have removed it as was the case originally after the complaint until the company asked an independent lab to test 3 cables & have the results reviewed by asa.

See my posting about the actual ruling.
 
John,



True for linear/unregulated power supplies, but not SMPSs.

The RF spectrum from SMPS is pretty horrific, the typically loop bandwidth of an SMPS is typically less then 1KHz (due to the phase shift introduced by the output LC filtering).

The typical SMPS LC filtering will be ineffective at RF due to inter-winding capacitance on the LC filters (and the internal parasitics of the decoupling capacitors etc) - it takes a few moments with a simulator to see the effects of only a few pF on RF coupling & conversely RF isolation.

While RF CAN be attenuated, its not in your typical Consumer grade PSU which have little in the way of screening / filter beyond what is required to pass mandatory CE requirements which is more concerned about inducing external interference then absolute levels of external interference rejection.

SMPS cause a HUGE level of RF interference - as a low level signal designer, I'm left to deal with the effects of these on a daily basis...

As with anything, an SMPS can be well filtered / screened, but its very costly by today's "Consumer" standards, and requires skill of the designer which is not understood by your typical (any) China SMPS vendor.

If you where in my shoes, then you would know how many repetitive times I've had to resolve SMPS RF noise interference for 3rd party's and its only getting worst. Sometimes I feel I'm on repeat - some old problems to the "surprised" client.

But that kind of RF enters the system directly, not via the power cord.

RF is injected via any connector port - the mains AC supply is typically one of the bigger problem areas - the proficiency of crude SMPS (and even cruder LED lighting supply's) and Home network over Mains just increases the number of encountered problems in the field.

In fact I have a Patent on a Modulator technique to reduce RF interference - I spent many years researching and developing high performance SMPS / Class D designs - I have a in-depth working experience of there RF performance.
 
Mains cables do not remove any RFI and indeed cannot. The results from RSA will be wrong. ANY length of random cable of any type will have some degree of transmission line effect and as such will show both some attenuation and at other frequencies quite the opposite depending on the frequencies involved, the length of the cable, the source and load impedance combined with the RF characteristic impedance of the particular cable.

"I just want to say the reason I have opened this thread is I have no scientific knowledge or training when it comes to electrical systems of hifi gear"
You have now spent an inordinate amount of time arguing your point in spite of admitting the above and in spite of being told by several electronic engineers that you are wrong.

I suggest ragaman that you go and read some books on electronics before proceeding with your 100% wrong campaign.
 
How does this kind of RFI enter the component directly?

I just want to say the reason I have opened this thread is I have no scientific knowledge or training when it comes to electrical systems of hifi gear so if I ask a question it is purely down to wanting to know the answer, as with this post, it is not to suggest I already know the answer & simply want to poke or aggravate.

Fair enough. RFI is, as the name implies, Rado-Frequency Interference. Radio implies electromagnetic radiation ("radio waves"). As John has pointed out, any semiconductor can act as receiver and detector for the electromagnetic radiation, and any conductor acts as an antenna (unless properly shielded).
 
The RF spectrum from SMPS is pretty horrific, the typically loop bandwidth of an SMPS is typically less then 1KHz (due to the phase shift introduced by the output LC filtering).

The typical SMPS LC filtering will be ineffective at RF due to inter-winding capacitance on the LC filters (and the internal parasitics of the decoupling capacitors etc) - it takes a few moments with a simulator to see the effects of only a few pF on RF coupling & conversely RF isolation.

While RF CAN be attenuated, its not in your typical Consumer grade PSU which have little in the way of screening / filter beyond what is required to pass mandatory CE requirements which is more concerned about inducing external interference then absolute levels of external interference rejection.

SMPS cause a HUGE level of RF interference - as a low level signal designer, I'm left to deal with these on a daily basis...

As with anything SMPS can be well filtered / screened, but its very costly by today's "Consumer" standards.

If you where in my shoes, then you would know how many repetitive times I've had to resolve SMPS RF noise interference for 3rd party's and its only getting worst. Sometimes I feel I'm on repeat - some old problems to the "surprised" client.

While I mostly agree with your points, we are not talking about a smps as a *source* of RF noise, but about how much mains-borne noise is filtered in the SMPS. For it to be mains-borne and not radiated, it has to be reasonably low frequency.

RF is injected via any connector port - the mains AC supply is typically one of the bigger problem areas - the proficiency of crude SMPS and Home network over Mains just increases the number of encountered problems in the field.

Do you think a mains cable will have a significant effect on that (apart from obvious things like a $2 ferrite choke)?
 
How does this kind of RFI enter the component directly?

I just want to say the reason I have opened this thread is I have no scientific knowledge or training when it comes to electrical systems of hifi gear so if I ask a question it is purely down to wanting to know the answer, as with this post, it is not to suggest I already know the answer & simply want to poke or aggravate.
If you are wanting to profit from this discussion then I would suggest taking a less aggressive stance. I would also recommend stepping back and looking at this again from scratch:

1) are mains cables sold purely or even mainly on the basis of RFI screening or rejection.

2) what part of their design contributes to this screening or rejection. what part of the cost of cables comes from this?

3) is RFI a problem for audio equipment?

4) if so where does it come from ie by what means does it enter the equipment

5) to what extent will the screening/rejection available from a mains cable reduce the rfi getting into a device


6) will this be reduced/isolated by something in the device anyway?

7) will this make an audible difference

8) could this more easily/cheaply/effectively done by a different means.
 
Do you think a mains cable will have a significant effect on that (apart from obvious things like a $2 ferrite choke)?

Gosh No, not at all - I believe that the cable vendors are clutching at straws claiming any viable level of RF attenuation - it will be "patchy / notchy" at best, rather then decent broadband attenuation levels.

Indeed your better off with ring chokes as close as possible to the unit then spending your money on "expensive" mains cables that claim any worthwhile RF attenuation.

A good quality Mains cable is not a bad thing for a decent system, but anything above say GBP100 is VERY VERY hard to justify IMO... I tend use just good quality IEC cables - although these are harder to find unless hand made. As the cost of Copper has increased unknown brands seem to uses some horrid "Brass Like" conductor....

I'd feel slightly bad about buying a GBP50 mains cable for my reference system, anything more is really questionable as surely money could be spent better somewhere else - and I'd not be buying the mains cable for its "RF attenuation" performance.
 
The RF spectrum from SMPS is pretty horrific, the typically loop bandwidth of an SMPS is typically less then 1KHz (due to the phase shift introduced by the output LC filtering).

The typical SMPS LC filtering will be ineffective at RF due to inter-winding capacitance on the LC filters (and the internal parasitics of the decoupling capacitors etc) - it takes a few moments with a simulator to see the effects of only a few pF on RF coupling & conversely RF isolation.

While RF CAN be attenuated, its not in your typical Consumer grade PSU which have little in the way of screening / filter beyond what is required to pass mandatory CE requirements which is more concerned about inducing external interference then absolute levels of external interference rejection.

SMPS cause a HUGE level of RF interference - as a low level signal designer, I'm left to deal with these on a daily basis...

As with anything SMPS can be well filtered / screened, but its very costly by today's "Consumer" standards.

If you where in my shoes, then you would know how many repetitive times I've had to resolve SMPS RF noise interference for 3rd party's and its only getting worst. Sometimes I feel I'm on repeat - some old problems to the "surprised" client.



RF is injected via any connector port - the mains AC supply is typically one of the bigger problem areas - the proficiency of crude SMPS and Home network over Mains just increases the number of encountered problems in the field.

It can be that bad of course but one hopes that in the realm of expensive hi-fi gear that some precautions have been taken.... often much of the expense goes into the aesthetics and marketing unfortunately.. but not always.

In the case of either linear or SMPS PSU's the situation can be made reasonably anodyne with a bit of design work and a bit of money thrown at the problem.

Rf filtered IEC sockets are a good start and actually do remove some RFI, unlike pixie dust wire, A ferrite toroid on the cable itself can be very effective as well and useful on common mode transmission. A decent "x" class capacitor across the transformer primary helps both with ingress and egress of interference, another better cap on the secondary can be used, snubbers across the rectifier and main smoothing caps bypassed by film and ceramic caps and the jobs a gud 'un. A transformer with interwinding screen is also a good idea....

The main problem here is the cost. Folks would be amazed the lengths some manufacturers of even expensive hi fi equipment go to in order to save just pennies... this was always one of my biggest bete noires when working in the industry!
 
Mains cables do not remove any RFI and indeed cannot. The results from RSA will be wrong. ANY length of random cable of any type will have some degree of transmission line effect and as such will show both some attenuation and at other frequencies quite the opposite depending on the frequencies involved, the length of the cable, the source and load impedance combined with the RF characteristic impedance of the particular cable.

"I just want to say the reason I have opened this thread is I have no scientific knowledge or training when it comes to electrical systems of hifi gear"
You have now spent an inordinate amount of time arguing your point in spite of admitting the above and in spite of being told by several electronic engineers that you are wrong.

I suggest ragaman that you go and read some books on electronics before proceeding with your 100% wrong campaign.

He's saying he doesn't understand it, not that there isn't any effect. On the balance of probability it would appear that your stance of there not being any effect is 100% wrong.
 


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