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Returning to vinyl - which turntable?

barrymidd said:
My next door neighbour owns one. (at least I think it is that model, they all look and sound the same to me, ie. flat and lifeless) I can't say I am in a rush to make him an offer for it.
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Sounds like you've done a pretty thorough investigation there. I have owned a Sondek for 26 years. Its latest spec was Lingo/Cirkus/Ekos2/ArkivB. I do not find my SL1200s flat and lifeless by comparison. I do find that they suffer less from wow, in that they seem to enable sustained notes to stay in tune during complex consonance. At any rate, the SL1200 is a very solid deck which should not be dismissed when spending a budget of £200-£400.
 
Masher said:
I've decided that after years of CD's and ipods (which are extremely practical) I'm returning to vinyl in my office. I'm not able to go crazy purchasing a turntable but a £200-£400 budget looks achievable.
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Given that the op's main source has been cd's, an LP12 would be the last thing he should listen too. Opposite poles comes to mind : so far removed from the sound hes used to i doubt that he would enjoy it.

TBH i sold my LP12/SME IIIs/goldring for £420 on ebay 4 years ago and i was glad to get rid of the damn thing. Slow, bloated and quite frankly, dull even after paying £150 for new cartridge and dealer setup. If thats musical then im a monkeys uncle.
 
sonddek said:
What's this for?:
http://www.rococosystems.com/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=prodshow&ref=Linn-Radikal
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Originally Posted by sonddek
What's this for?:
http://www.rococosystems.com/index.p...f=Linn-Radikal

This is what one see's at the end of the advert. "Linn Hi-FI | Blinds/Curtains | Controls | Lighting | Networking | Security | Telecoms | Partners"

A real jack of all.
Would you buy your curtains from a Hi Fi Dealer? Just think of the pole upgrade potential and those esoteric curtain hooks at £100.00 each. Networking eh.
 
sonddek said:
Sounds like you've done a pretty thorough investigation there. I have owned a Sondek for 26 years. Its latest spec was Lingo/Cirkus/Ekos2/ArkivB. I do not find my SL1200s flat and lifeless by comparison. I do find that they suffer less from wow, in that they seem to enable sustained notes to stay in tune during complex consonance. At any rate, the SL1200 is a very solid deck which should not be dismissed when spending a budget of £200-£400.
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Of course everyone has an opinion, but mine is that belt driven decks are more musical and dynamic than DD. DDs are great for DJs but not up to hifi use (IMO) and I have heard loads of them, in all types of systems over the years. They are less adaptable when it comes to arm swaps generally as well which I think is a major weakness.
The only DD TT I ever heard that impressed even slightly (IMO) was a Denon something-or-other.
The Thorens TD160 with a Shure cart is a known quantity and offers a recognised and highly worthwhile upgrade path (in fact several if you look at arms) and for that budget, offers by far the biggest "Bang For Your Buck" (IMO).
 
So does any decent belt drive TT. If the pitch is wandering, your deck needs a service and set up. I have had professional musicians listen to my belt drive deck and declare it pitch perfect.
 
With the benefit of hindsight, if I was in your shoes coming back to vinyl, I would do this. You can then choose the arm you want, or look for one that comes with one. There is no going wrong with one of these at this price, believe me.
As it is I went for a Pro-Ject Genie, which was fine, but I quickly moved on to my now mega-deck. If I had bought a Thorens I might have lingered there a while longer.
 
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Re cartridge, a friend recently bought a Shure M97ex (I think that was the model) which is available in the UK around £80. He got it from the States around £50 delivered and it's very good. This is a better cart than the M75 talked about earlier, and it's cheaper than a 75 plus a boutique stylus. These are not the only game in town, see also AT95, AT110, with or without Jico tweaked stylus. All these are MM, go with any arm and standard phono stages.
 
Word of caution re the Thorens 160, they are lightly sprung. On a suspended floor they are sensitive to footfall so you need either a concrete floor or a wall shelf.
 
barrymidd said:
Of course everyone has an opinion, but mine is that belt driven decks are more musical and dynamic than DD. DDs are great for DJs but not up to hifi use (IMO) and I have heard loads of them, in all types of systems over the years. They are less adaptable when it comes to arm swaps generally as well which I think is a major weakness.
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The suspended Thorens/Sondek designs are in fact much less adaptable than an SL1200 because there is a limit on how much the arm can weigh, as this affects the balance of the springs. A wider selection of arms can be used on an SL1200 because weight doesn't really matter. For instance, it is difficult to set up an SME IV well on a Sondek whereas on an SL1200 it is child's play. Conversely, Linn arms work perfectly well on an SL1200.

As has been said, if you are used to CD you may well notice the pitch and timing variation of a Sondek or a Thorens. Note that Linn has several 'upgrade' products for improving this aspect of the Sondek (Lingo I, II, III, and Radikal) but in my experience of listening to Radikal Sondek SE's at renowned dealers the belt still limits the speed stability of the deck to a level well below what a humble SL1200 manages.

I reiterate what I said earlier. You need to decide if you like wow. If you do, then get a Thorens or a Sondek. If you don't, and you prefer the more clockwork musical presentation of digital, then you will enjoy a Technics SL1200.

If you do opt for an SL1200, then your budget will probably allow a wider choice of cartridges. Don't overlook the Goldring 2000 series as well as the 1000's. People also like the Denon 103 variants and Denon's other cheap moving coils, and the Audio Technicas. There are many other candidates - we are spoiled for choice.
 
Thanks for all the advice, it's all much clearer now :D. Seriously, thanks for taking the trouble to comment.

Part of the reason for wanting to return to vinyl was I'd forgotten the 'ritual' of getting the record out, setting the equipment to play it and then reading all the covernotes whilst listening. I'm also interested in something that has visual appeal (I can feel some of the purists cringeing and I expect responses like 'don't compromise sound quality for looks'. So thoughts on the advice so far for me is:

Budget - the £400 top end is to have something playing in my office. Turntable, arm, cartridge, stylus, leads and anything else I need.

Technics - may be excellent but just leaves me cold
Linn - it was the Axis in my mind but if there's an LP12 out there within budget just point me at it.
Thorens TD150 / TD160 - tempted and I'd get my cabinet-maker friend to make a new 'box' for it (I'm sure there's a technical term but it illudes me)
Rega P3/24 - quite tempted - any drawbacks?
I watched a Transcriptors TT go for £320 on ebay and wished I'd bought it - would I have regretted it?
I've also seen a Notts Analogue interspace with early NA arm advertised locally for £450 - I'm tempted since I read good reviews of their stuff but the marble-look might take some getting used to!
Current TT (now don't laugh) Hitachi HT-50S quartz direct drive - impressed or what?

Thanks for all the thoughts,
Mike
 
You didn't miss anything by not getting the Transcriptors, except the fantastic visuals. They were never renowned for their sound.
 
Rega P3/24 - quite tempted - any drawbacks?
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I have had a P2 and P3, and neither approached a Thorens 125, 126, 150 or 160, all of which I've had. The P2 was my first deck, with an AT110, and I told everyone that it showed vinyl sounded better than CD. Except that it didn't, it was competent but boring. My mid market Denon 920 CD player was a better machine.

The Thorens 150 with the golf-ball arm is a neat little thing and comes in under £100 with luck. Someone here had one with a lovely Henk plinth, no arm, ended up Ebaying it and only got about £140. The plinth was worth that, I nearly bought it myself but I have other interesting TT projects to play with.
 
sonddek said:
The suspended Thorens/Sondek designs are in fact much less adaptable than an SL1200 because there is a limit on how much the arm can weigh, as this affects the balance of the springs. A wider selection of arms can be used on an SL1200 because weight doesn't really matter. For instance, it is difficult to set up an SME IV well on a Sondek whereas on an SL1200 it is child's play. Conversely, Linn arms work perfectly well on an SL1200.

As has been said, if you are used to CD you may well notice the pitch and timing variation of a Sondek or a Thorens. Note that Linn has several 'upgrade' products for improving this aspect of the Sondek (Lingo I, II, III, and Radikal) but in my experience of listening to Radikal Sondek SE's at renowned dealers the belt still limits the speed stability of the deck to a level well below what a humble SL1200 manages.

I reiterate what I said earlier. You need to decide if you like wow. If you do, then get a Thorens or a Sondek. If you don't, and you prefer the more clockwork musical presentation of digital, then you will enjoy a Technics SL1200.

If you do opt for an SL1200, then your budget will probably allow a wider choice of cartridges. Don't overlook the Goldring 2000 series as well as the 1000's. People also like the Denon 103 variants and Denon's other cheap moving coils, and the Audio Technicas. There are many other candidates - we are spoiled for choice.
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I have a granite arm board on my TD125 which weighs 800g or 1&3/4lb without an arm. This may not be possible on a Linn, but Thorens springs can be adjusted or even replaced with stronger ones to take a lot more weight.
 
barrymidd said:
I have a granite arm board on my TD125 which weighs 800g or 1&3/4lb without an arm. This may not be possible on a Linn, but Thorens springs can be adjusted or even replaced with stronger ones to take a lot more weight.
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Great, but I'm afraid that doesn't make what you said earlier any truer:
DDs... ...are less adaptable when it comes to arm swaps generally as well which I think is a major weakness.
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Have Fun said:
I'd suggest a listen of the Needledrop thread - a few Thorens, BD2,
Linn, NA, Technics etc etc examples
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Indeed, wish more folks were more forthcoming sharing drops of their deck, beats bloviating! Chris has some excellent needle drops of his heavily modified Techy, look forward to hearing it with a new cartridge.
 
I am no expert on DD, but I believe many arm designs, especially unipivots and low mass designs do not work well on Technics decks. This is probably at least 50% of all arms. It is not just a question of whether or not they can be physically mounted, but how well they perform. As for pitch stability, IMO the superiority of DD is a total myth and I will be happy to discuss the scientific reasons for this.
 
I'd go for a TD150. :)

Why?

Because they're very simple, well-engineered, and set up very carefully (and with a suitable arm) will surely give an early (pre-Valhalla) LP12 a run for its money. You could get a TD150, add a good arm, and still have it for less than an armless LP12. You pays yer money though of course - and I still fall into the 'LP12 fan club' dept.

As to pitch variation - I'm blessed (hindered to be honest) with perfect pitch (at A442) and once set up right my little TD150 was spot-on. It's quite possible to set it up wrongly and actually introduce pitch instability - get it right (it took me a bit of practice but I got there) and it's almost like the eye of the hurricane - all is calm, and it just gets on with the job of playing sweet music.

Very recently I was lucky to have a very nice Rega P7 - it sounded superb - but in all honesty I preferred the TD150....which I wasn't expecting. Now, I'm using a Garrard 401 which is without doubt a major step-up from the Thorens, but buying one could be a bit of a minefield. I was lucky - mine's in nigh on spotless condition.

Good luck and have fun with whatever you choose. :)

Oh...as to the SL1200/1210 it's a superb turntable but as standard it's merely 'ok'. Mod it though and it can be a total beast of a thing...just depends if you want to go for it, or how much you want to spend. The potential is definitely there though, and it's a piece of duff to set up. :)
 
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