Restoring a Thorens TD124 Mk II SME3009 Shure V15 Type III
- Thread starter Fox
- Start date
PlattenFantast
TT user
Hi Fox,
Can you comment on the actual perceived differences soundwise and musicalitywise between your "starting point" i.e. the TD 124/II, SME 3009 S2 Imp, Shure V15 III and what you have now?
BTW; did you ever try a different cartridge in the SME before replacing it - the V15 III can sound a bit "soft" and "lean" IME?
Peter
Can you comment on the actual perceived differences soundwise and musicalitywise between your "starting point" i.e. the TD 124/II, SME 3009 S2 Imp, Shure V15 III and what you have now?
BTW; did you ever try a different cartridge in the SME before replacing it - the V15 III can sound a bit "soft" and "lean" IME?
Peter
Hello dear all !
I read all your very interesting posts regarding the amazing Thorens TD 124.
I wanted to share with you my passion for that excellent turntable.
I am happy to tell you that I have 2 pieces which have offered me musical pleasure like no other turntable.
I am in audio business about 32 years and I still enjoy that job as it is my hobby and passion.
Thorens TD124 as we all know here ,is a piece of art and sounds so live, so musical, so ''fresh'', with it's own excellent dynamics, rhythm, timing,3D soundstage etc!
I have compared that with lots of good TTs, but....it was always better! to my taste. Thanks to my job I had the chance to use, own and hear beautiful TTs, heavy,beautifully made, with 2-3 motors, 3 armboards,modern and classic designs, with suspension or heavy mass. But
the old, classic and vintage Thorens 124 ,with less expensive tonearms and cartridges was always superior!. More live, more dynamic, more pleasant with better bass and rhythm.
I will always remember how I felt 20 years ago when I found one used 124mkII / EMT /Shure M75...!without plinth.. I just connected to my system consisted at that time of ,Audio Research SP6 E with Telefunken valves,Futterman 3AA improved, Quad ESL 63, Linn LP12,ZETA,DECCA LONDON and LINN/ITTOK/VDH MC1. I HEARD MUSIC FOR MANY HOURS and I was surprised and ...amazed with the new dimension of live and real music that the 124 reproduced in a totally different way. I was shocked. I could not believe that an old used for decades tt without plinth.... with an old used low priced Shure M75..not well adjusted, with old wires..with no any service to motor, no lubricants , no any care to idler wheel and belt, could fly me to the moon..
Due to my job it was not possible to have them in my demo rooms where new products were only displayed.
Some times I brought the 124 again in the demo rooms in order to find out why I could not enjoy the music using my other new , exotic , heavy, luxury...turntables..as I enjoyed using the 124. I could not find why and the secret of Thorens.
I purchased a second 124MKII/SME 3009 II with a light plinth, no mushrooms in very good condition.
I finally decided to keep both home and enjoy the music using them on my home system only.
Business all over the world are very quiet...so I found the time to make some restorations first to the Thorens 124 MKII/SME 3009 II/AUDIO NOTE IQ3.
The armboard is made from black perspex like that I saw here to a similar to mine 124II/SME/Pickering.I does not have the black factory wooden armboard.That perspex armboard is also 1/2 the thickness of the factory wooden armboard... I thought that it was not the original factory item and I was ready to search for a wooden one. Have you any information about that perspex armboard? What about the sound quality of these different armboards?
I will order some parts from Shopper, such as drive belt,platter bearing replacement, mushrooms,motor damping rubber suspension and idler wheel noise reduction kit. I have a brand new idler wheel if needed in the future to replace one of the old which are in very very good condition (after 40 years!!).
Could you please give me your advices from your experience and knowledge about:
Which is the correct turn duration of the platter when it runs 33 1/3 rpm speed till it will completely stop ?
When I stop it from 33 rpm it takes 56 seconds to stop. I think that test indicates the condition of the bearing, oil and the bottom bearing surface condition.
How long it will take for a well restored 124MKII to obtain the correct speed from cold? I think that will indicate the condition of the motor bearings and if they need restoration (which is a stressful job for me having in mind that it is possible to cause a motor damage.)
How many drops or grams are needed for the main bearing lubrication? Have I to fill it and take off the recess of oil with a cloth?
Lots of thoughts and questions, but you know well about our passion for that amazing 124 !!
Thank you for all your very informative posts and the valuable help you offer to all Thorens TD 124 happy owners.
I read all your very interesting posts regarding the amazing Thorens TD 124.
I wanted to share with you my passion for that excellent turntable.
I am happy to tell you that I have 2 pieces which have offered me musical pleasure like no other turntable.
I am in audio business about 32 years and I still enjoy that job as it is my hobby and passion.
Thorens TD124 as we all know here ,is a piece of art and sounds so live, so musical, so ''fresh'', with it's own excellent dynamics, rhythm, timing,3D soundstage etc!
I have compared that with lots of good TTs, but....it was always better! to my taste. Thanks to my job I had the chance to use, own and hear beautiful TTs, heavy,beautifully made, with 2-3 motors, 3 armboards,modern and classic designs, with suspension or heavy mass. But
the old, classic and vintage Thorens 124 ,with less expensive tonearms and cartridges was always superior!. More live, more dynamic, more pleasant with better bass and rhythm. I will always remember how I felt 20 years ago when I found one used 124mkII / EMT /Shure M75...!without plinth.. I just connected to my system consisted at that time of ,Audio Research SP6 E with Telefunken valves,Futterman 3AA improved, Quad ESL 63, Linn LP12,ZETA,DECCA LONDON and LINN/ITTOK/VDH MC1. I HEARD MUSIC FOR MANY HOURS and I was surprised and ...amazed with the new dimension of live and real music that the 124 reproduced in a totally different way. I was shocked. I could not believe that an old used for decades tt without plinth.... with an old used low priced Shure M75..not well adjusted, with old wires..with no any service to motor, no lubricants , no any care to idler wheel and belt, could fly me to the moon.
.Due to my job it was not possible to have them in my demo rooms where new products were only displayed.
Some times I brought the 124 again in the demo rooms in order to find out why I could not enjoy the music using my other new , exotic , heavy, luxury...turntables..as I enjoyed using the 124. I could not find why and the secret of Thorens.
I purchased a second 124MKII/SME 3009 II with a light plinth, no mushrooms in very good condition.
I finally decided to keep both home and enjoy the music using them on my home system only.
Business all over the world are very quiet...so I found the time to make some restorations first to the Thorens 124 MKII/SME 3009 II/AUDIO NOTE IQ3.
The armboard is made from black perspex like that I saw here to a similar to mine 124II/SME/Pickering.I does not have the black factory wooden armboard.That perspex armboard is also 1/2 the thickness of the factory wooden armboard... I thought that it was not the original factory item and I was ready to search for a wooden one. Have you any information about that perspex armboard? What about the sound quality of these different armboards?
I will order some parts from Shopper, such as drive belt,platter bearing replacement, mushrooms,motor damping rubber suspension and idler wheel noise reduction kit. I have a brand new idler wheel if needed in the future to replace one of the old which are in very very good condition (after 40 years!!).
Could you please give me your advices from your experience and knowledge about:
Which is the correct turn duration of the platter when it runs 33 1/3 rpm speed till it will completely stop ?
When I stop it from 33 rpm it takes 56 seconds to stop. I think that test indicates the condition of the bearing, oil and the bottom bearing surface condition.
How long it will take for a well restored 124MKII to obtain the correct speed from cold? I think that will indicate the condition of the motor bearings and if they need restoration (which is a stressful job for me having in mind that it is possible to cause a motor damage.
)How many drops or grams are needed for the main bearing lubrication? Have I to fill it and take off the recess of oil with a cloth?
Lots of thoughts and questions, but you know well about our passion for that amazing 124 !!
Thank you for all your very informative posts and the valuable help you offer to all Thorens TD 124 happy owners.
Tony L
Administrator
Just timed mine and it takes 52 seconds to stop from 33rpm. That's from cold, i.e. I've just turned it on, then off again. I guess it may take a little longer if the deck had been running a couple of hours. The Thorens main bearings seem very good indeed to me, I've never heard stories of badly worn ones. When I stripped mine down there was no marking at all on the spindle at all, just perfect condition.
I've no idea how long it takes to get fully stable speed wise, but certainly under an LP side. On cold starting the strobe drifts backwards very slowly, though after it's played a record it's settled. I only ever tweak the speed knob once it's played a side or two.
Tony.
@highcut28 Still waiting for my new one to arrive from the USA. I just got the shipping manifest yesterday. Its a copy of the Ortofon so measurements are,
Bottom- 425mm x 355mm. Top- 415mm x 345mm. Height- 70mm. The plinth change was purely so I can get the thing on a wall shelf and have a dust cover made and to add mass (adding mass/brass platter *really* pushed it).
@Plattenfantast. I won't be able to comment on before or after or so on as its been a long time between listens and therefore unreliable.
The Shure vs Koetsu thing I am unable to comment, however I can comment on the DL103 > ESCo retipped Koetsu -- DL013 is a lovely cart but the Urushi is so much better in tracking, in music and sound, in ability to make me forget I am listening to hardware.
Bottom- 425mm x 355mm. Top- 415mm x 345mm. Height- 70mm. The plinth change was purely so I can get the thing on a wall shelf and have a dust cover made and to add mass (adding mass/brass platter *really* pushed it).
@Plattenfantast. I won't be able to comment on before or after or so on as its been a long time between listens and therefore unreliable.
The Shure vs Koetsu thing I am unable to comment, however I can comment on the DL103 > ESCo retipped Koetsu -- DL013 is a lovely cart but the Urushi is so much better in tracking, in music and sound, in ability to make me forget I am listening to hardware.
Thanks a lot.
Have you any idea about the grms of oil needed to put inside the main bearing? I think is important for the Thorens 124 owners to know that.
I think that less or more oil than the optimum will cause a problem to the bearing in the future.
I live in Greece and quite nobody knows about that specific issue.
Any feedback from THORENS 124 owners would be very helpful.
Be all well!
Nikos
Tony L
Administrator
There are two schools of thought in servicing the TD-124; undo the platter from the bearing, and don't. Both approaches have plusses and minuses, the former requires re-centreing the platter, the latter makes it harder to service and re-lube the bearing.
I chose the former approach, i.e. I unbolted the spindle from the platter, removed the bearing from the deck, stripped and cleaned it all, re-lubed it, and reassembled everything and then finally centred the platter. I used as much oil as I could possibly get into the thing. IIRC I used the oil Loricraft gave me for my 301.
Tony.
audiogoose
pfm Member
Since this topic pertains to the Thorens 124, I thought I might get opinions on how my Thorens reacts to being turned on, from cold.
It seems that mine reacts differently than most people's experiences. My 124 will actually run fast for about an hour, before it gradually slows to a steady speed. I'm estimating that it runs about 1% fast upon turn-on. Can't say that it seems to sound any different, though.
My theory has always been that the belt stretches gradually and slightly as friction heats it up, but that may not be the case.
Are there any other ideas ,or theories out there about what might be happening, and does anyone else experience this?
It seems that mine reacts differently than most people's experiences. My 124 will actually run fast for about an hour, before it gradually slows to a steady speed. I'm estimating that it runs about 1% fast upon turn-on. Can't say that it seems to sound any different, though.
My theory has always been that the belt stretches gradually and slightly as friction heats it up, but that may not be the case.
Are there any other ideas ,or theories out there about what might be happening, and does anyone else experience this?
audiogoose
pfm Member
Forgot to add that at turn-off, my platter continues to spin for 2 min. and 50 seconds. This is with the original bearing housing and spindle, but with a Teflon thrust pad.
This is from 33 1/3 speed.
This is from 33 1/3 speed.
wow thats amazing!! So long?
It might be the teflon thrust pad that makes the platter to run so long.Teflon is a perfect quite modern material for any bearing base.
My 124 runs for about 56 seconds (only...) from 33,1/3.
I will check the time needed for obtaining the 33,1/3 from cold.I remember that it takes too long (from cold) in order to obtain the correct speed as the previous day.
So if we all make these two measurements:
A. running time from 33,1/3 to 0,
B. time needed for correct speed
we will have the opportunity to know how our own TD 124 works in comparison to the others and if works properly. We can also issue here our measurements before restoration and after restoration.
It might be the teflon thrust pad that makes the platter to run so long.Teflon is a perfect quite modern material for any bearing base.
My 124 runs for about 56 seconds (only...) from 33,1/3.
I will check the time needed for obtaining the 33,1/3 from cold.I remember that it takes too long (from cold) in order to obtain the correct speed as the previous day.
So if we all make these two measurements:
A. running time from 33,1/3 to 0,
B. time needed for correct speed
we will have the opportunity to know how our own TD 124 works in comparison to the others and if works properly. We can also issue here our measurements before restoration and after restoration.
I made my own thrust pad for the bearing out of an old automotive shim (hardened steel I expect) as the original was slightly marked.
My platter spins for about 70 secs after switch off when cold (just timed it). It is speed stable very quickly but I put this down to a recently fitted new belt and motor lube.
To service the bearing, I pull the platter with spindle completely out of the bearing housing and fill to about 1/3 the way up the housing with Mobil 1 fully synthetic motor oil (I figure if it is good enough for Formula 1 engines, it is good enough for a turntable bearing). I then replace the spindle/platter in the housing and spin it by hand and leave it to settle to the bottom of the housing, which takes about 5 or more mins and believe it or not it keeps spinning until it is fully down and seems almost frictionless - which is testament to just how good the bearing is. I then remove the spindle/platter again and clean the excess oil from around the top of the bearing housing, but leave the felt ring soaked in the oil. I then repeat the previous procedure and this time I know there is exactly the right amount of oil in the bearing.
I have heard people in the know recommending the use of EP80 gearbox oil in the TD124 bearing but it seems a bit thick to me (the oil not the idea)
Personally, I think a good turntable is "conspicuous by its absence" in the sound chain and this leaves the way clear for the arm/cartridge combo to strut its stuff. Good turntables neither add or subtract from the sound from the speakers.
Barry
My platter spins for about 70 secs after switch off when cold (just timed it). It is speed stable very quickly but I put this down to a recently fitted new belt and motor lube.
To service the bearing, I pull the platter with spindle completely out of the bearing housing and fill to about 1/3 the way up the housing with Mobil 1 fully synthetic motor oil (I figure if it is good enough for Formula 1 engines, it is good enough for a turntable bearing). I then replace the spindle/platter in the housing and spin it by hand and leave it to settle to the bottom of the housing, which takes about 5 or more mins and believe it or not it keeps spinning until it is fully down and seems almost frictionless - which is testament to just how good the bearing is. I then remove the spindle/platter again and clean the excess oil from around the top of the bearing housing, but leave the felt ring soaked in the oil. I then repeat the previous procedure and this time I know there is exactly the right amount of oil in the bearing.
I have heard people in the know recommending the use of EP80 gearbox oil in the TD124 bearing but it seems a bit thick to me (the oil not the idea
)Personally, I think a good turntable is "conspicuous by its absence" in the sound chain and this leaves the way clear for the arm/cartridge combo to strut its stuff. Good turntables neither add or subtract from the sound from the speakers.
Barry
hairyderriere
pfm Member
audiogoose
pfm Member
The Teflon pad came from Schopper, along with a copy of the original nylon one that they provided with the spindle bearing rebuild kit that I bought from them several years ago. I still have the nylon pad, which I have never used.
Don't know what the difference in performance would be.
Don't know what the difference in performance would be.
hairyderriere
pfm Member
Ah, Schopper. I have a nice Schopping list already for my Mark 2...
HD.
HD.
hairyderriere
pfm Member
Has anyone sent their 124 to Schopper for the 'Complete Chassis & Motor Restoration'? Was it worth it? I'm trying to decide if I have the time and skill to do it properly. The biggest issue seems to be the stripping and renovation of the motor. The Schopper service looks thorough but it ain't peanuts...
HD.
HD.
Radfordman
pfm Member
It was many years ago, but I found that the motor was easy to get apart and put back together. I later put the Papst motor in.
Radfordman
pfm Member
There was an authorized Thorens motor mod. I have an instruction sheet here, I can scan it and post it somewhere. Will try and do withing the next couple of hours.