Resonant energy transfer

[Arkless Electronics]

Elvis will be chuffed, it's looking like a good year for the roses

 

[guydarryl]

According to the star sound technologies blurb; I can't copy any of it without permission so my apologies for abbreviating - it seems that they they are recommending steel, brass, Copper or aluminium in an appropriate geometric shape, to channel the vibrations to "ground".

Anyone for spikes?

 

[wow&flutter]

I'm going to bring a new product to market I think. Working on my marketing speak below....

'It is EXTREMELY important to isolate a solid state amplifier from vibrations as within the chips themselves there is no vibration resistance layering and especially in modern surface mount components where the legs might offer some bounce. Vibration can lead to noodling© of the signals and from there, further amplification stages, particularly power amplification can severely impact on sound quality of the music. You'll hear these as a muddying of the sound and especially in complex passages where feedback will conflate to over-noodle© the music.
For this very reason we have started to produce a silicon based on the latest Silicon Carbide processes AND more importantly using in-built damping layers within the Silicon Carbide layers and under the chip when packaged. Gold wire is used to ensure the best contact with the outside world and ceramic packages are used instead of plastic to form a solid reference box around the system.'

Just need a name for this and I'll start to market it. Any suggestions? Must be made using at least four words suggesting awesome and expensive in any order.

What about a Creative Resonance Attenuation Provider. Maybe C.R.A.P for short. It could be sold as a modular solution so each channel could have a load of C.R.A.P under each speaker.

There could be an option for Linn users of course which would be the K.R.A.P version.

 

[DimitryZ]

Found comments made throughout this thread by the thread starter interesting. Seems he has a clamping type device for his gear and is anti-isolation.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-products-still-considered-accessories.30911/

Here’s another discussion from a product website that discusses the same concept.

http://starsoundtechnologies.com/liveVibeDetails2.php?THE-PROVING-GROUNDS-3

Basically, this is $5-10k(!) rack, correct? I particularly like the "artistically" cut images in the shelves' sheet metal.

If you have a very solid and high mass floor (concrete, in domestic settings), it's probably a good rack. On typical wood floors, not so much.

But I found a similar product, introduced and reviewed here - maybe from the same manufacturer. Keep in mind, this is just the latest innovation on the original design from the 1960s - so very mature tech.

 

[JimmyB]

Nope, looks like even Keysight hasn't properly dealt with the side-fumbly issue, I'm disappointed in them.

 

[h.g.]

Some more information on the kind of thing some of the more committed audiophiles believe but nothing that I can see on why. Would their BS-filters be as blocked in other areas? Or is committing to a particular audiophile belief (for reasons not understood) responsible for creating a fairly narrowly focused blocking of their BS-filters? I find the whole thing baffling but it is clearly fairly common particularly in these somewhat dummed down days compared to when I was younger.

 

[Mr Pig]

I think that picking them up on grammatical errors is pathetic, I could understand perfectly well what they meant. The question is are they talking sense and I think they are. OK, I agree that they're maybe taking their conclusions a bit far but the basic premise makes sense to me.

For years Mana got nothing but great revues across magazines of all persuasions and no bad reviews, which was an uncommon achievement, and had hundreds of happy users but to this day not many people seem to have an understanding of how it works, if any. It got derision from people who'd never tried it but were convinced it couldn't work because of the lack of a technical explanation.

Sure, there are plenty of snake oil products on the market but what these people are suggesting makes sense to me because I think it's partly how Mana works. I still cannot understand how Mana does some of the things I've heard it do but it's obvious that we do not know the complete physics on this. Bits of it yeah, but there are clearly things going on we don't understand.

 

[tuga]

I’ve purchased HiFi products that do a similar type of thing and it’s interesting to me reading more about the topic. I thought it might be interesting to others though it might turn off those who have ascribe to a different orthodoxy.

Here’s a bit that describes the goal:

The unique direct-coupled Audio Point™ design of Sistrum Platforms allows a pre-determined pattern of energy, known as Coulomb Friction; to develop and dissipate via a high-speed calculated conductive pathway to earth's ground.

If your goal is to learn about the science involved then I would definitely avoid the typical audiophile sources such as magazines, forums (perhaps with the exceptions of ASR and DIYAudio) and above all marketing blabbering from manufacturer websites.
But that’s me.

 

[Roog]

The very last group that I trust are salespersons

 

[gustav_errata]

I think that picking them up on grammatical errors is pathetic, I could understand perfectly well what they meant. The question is are they talking sense and I think they are. OK, I agree that they're maybe taking their conclusions a bit far but the basic premise makes sense to me.

For years Mana got nothing but great revues across magazines of all persuasions and no bad reviews, which was an uncommon achievement, and had hundreds of happy users but to this day not many people seem to have an understanding of how it works, if any. It got derision from people who'd never tried it but were convinced it couldn't work because of the lack of a technical explanation.

Sure, there are plenty of snake oil products on the market but what these people are suggesting makes sense to me because I think it's partly how Mana works. I still cannot understand how Mana does some of the things I've heard it do but it's obvious that we do not know the complete physics on this. Bits of it yeah, but there are clearly things going on we don't understand.

I will argue that if they can't explain it clearly, they don't understand it (or they're deliberately obfuscating). If they don't understand it, they couldn't have designed it well. If they were just guessing, they should have done more due diligence to figure it out so they could optimise both price and performance. They could presumably also patent it and probably bring in far greater income by carrying their successes into other markets that could benefit from their invention.

 

[Bob McC]

Looks like a TNT flexitable with knobs on to me.

 

[h.g.]

I think that picking them up on grammatical errors is pathetic, I could understand perfectly well what they meant.

Are you referring to calling energy a force a grammatical error? If so, that might be getting us somewhere. If someone said 2+2 = 7 I presume you wouldn't call that a grammatical error? And if 2+2 = 7 was their explanation for what they were promoting would you view it as dishonest? Or a mistake that anyone could make and if it doesn't fit for an explanation for whatever is being believed in then you would have confidence that some other explanation will come along later?

The question is are they talking sense and I think they are.

Can you explain why they are making sense to you. You must have some basis for this belief in the sense of believing this be true or that to be true and therefore it fits/makes sense.

For years Mana got nothing but great revues across magazines of all persuasions and no bad reviews,

Yes I have observed something similar on ebay but there was an explanation which wasn't that all customers were 100% satisfied.

which was an uncommon achievement, and had hundreds of happy users but to this day not many people seem to have an understanding of how it works, if any.

I have seen the name before but not familiar with the products. They made racks for Naim equipment?

It got derision from people who'd never tried it but were convinced it couldn't work because of the lack of a technical explanation.

I don't know what the claims were but if they violated the laws of physics then it wouldn't be necessary to try them. Derision would be a reasonable response. Without details though one can't say one way or the other.

Sure, there are plenty of snake oil products on the market but what these people are suggesting makes sense to me because I think it's partly how Mana works.

I suspect it may "work" in exactly the same way as Mana and many other audiophile products.

I still cannot understand how Mana does some of the things I've heard it do but it's obvious that we do not know the complete physics on this.

You may not know the complete physics but why wouldn't people that have studied the relevant science and engineering not know the complete physics?

Bits of it yeah, but there are clearly things going on we don't understand.

You may not understand the physics but others do. Whereas some of us that understand the relevant physics (or would if supplied with a clear description) don't understand why the marketing strategy is so effective for a few non-technical audiophiles. So I guess we are in agreement on this point.

 

[h.g.]

They could presumably also patent it and probably bring in far greater income by carrying their successes into other markets that could benefit from their invention.

When patenting there is no requirement for something to work or for the explanation of how it works to be a technical one rather than a magical one. In fact the more ridiculous an invention the less conflict there will be with other inventions. Patenting something can have significant marketing value for those unfamiliar with how the patenting system has broken down in recent times particularly in the US. So patenting a magical audiophile accessory would be almost automatic these days if it weren't for the cost. The margins may be high for expensive audiophile accessories but the volumes are low meaning the costs for patents are likely to take too much out of the marketing budget. Nonetheless "patent applied for" was fairly common about 15 years ago when I took a brief interest in audiophile accessories.

 

[sq225917]

I've read loads of happy Mana reviews used under dacs, amps and all manner of solid state gubbins where it makes absolutely SFA difference to the sound on the wires.

People just like being in a club.

 

[John]

Basically, this is $5-10k(!) rack, correct? I particularly like the "artistically" cut images in the shelves' sheet metal.

If you have a very solid and high mass floor (concrete, in domestic settings), it's probably a good rack. On typical wood floors, not so much.

I just came about the Star Sound Technologies website a couple days ago when searching “resonant energy transfer”. I believe it’s a term used in physics and I was curious to read more about it.

The company makes many products that range in price from $80 to up to $9,000. The cuts into the metal shelves are there so that the brass cones can be strategically fastened to contact the bottom of the component in the appropriate place.

http://starsoundtechnologies.com/faq.php

I don’t see any reason why their products wouldn’t work on a suspended wood floor. It’s an American company and a great percentage of homes have that type of flooring.

 

[Ian G]

see any reason why their products wouldn’t work on a suspended wood floor. It’s an American company and a great percentage of homes have that type of flooring.

Is that not analogous to glueing the hifi to a trampoline ?

 

[wow&flutter]

I think that picking them up on grammatical errors is pathetic, I could understand perfectly well what they meant. The question is are they talking sense and I think they are. OK, I agree that they're maybe taking their conclusions a bit far but the basic premise makes sense to me.

For years Mana got nothing but great revues across magazines of all persuasions and no bad reviews, which was an uncommon achievement, and had hundreds of happy users but to this day not many people seem to have an understanding of how it works, if any. It got derision from people who'd never tried it but were convinced it couldn't work because of the lack of a technical explanation.

Sure, there are plenty of snake oil products on the market but what these people are suggesting makes sense to me because I think it's partly how Mana works. I still cannot understand how Mana does some of the things I've heard it do but it's obvious that we do not know the complete physics on this. Bits of it yeah, but there are clearly things going on we don't understand.

I've read loads of happy Mana reviews used under dacs, amps and all manner of solid state gubbins where it makes absolutely SFA difference to the sound on the wires.

People just like being in a club.

Was there ever a piece of Mana kit designed to be used under the listener? Maybe they tested it and thought it’d be too uncomfortable for the old farts with new hips and haemorrhoids. (Great name for a band!).

 

[gustav_errata]

I don’t see any reason why their products wouldn’t work on a suspended wood floor. It’s an American company and a great percentage of homes have that type of flooring.

Apologies in advance to all the mechanical engineers in case my terminology, or understanding even, is incorrect. I am but a lowly computational biologist. I am happy to be corrected.

Because their products work by mechanical coupling, any vibration from coupled speakers will transfer to the floor and then any vibrations from the floor will transfer to a coupled rack and from that to the equipment. If the floor is high-mass (concrete), it would require a lot of energy to induce substantial vibration, but a suspended wooden floor will vibrate like a drum (and probably quite audibly). If the floor is vibrating, and your rack is coupled to the floor, the rack will also absorb that energy and vibrate. If it's isolated from the floor, the energy won't be transferred (eg. it'll be dissipated as heat via the isolation material like sorbothane). Things get more complicated, I guess, when you factor in the effect of sound waves hitting the coupled gear and rack and how that energy interacts phase-wise with that arriving from the floor. Way above my pay-grade.

Of course, with solid-state gear, the effect of vibration on sound may be so low as to be negligible but I lack the evidence or theory to back up that statement (aside from a couple of "just-so" at-home "experiments" on the web).

 

[John]

Apologies in advance to all the mechanical engineers in case my terminology, or understanding even, is incorrect. I am but a lowly computational biologist. I am happy to be corrected.

Because their products work by mechanical coupling, any vibration from coupled speakers will transfer to the floor and then any vibrations from the floor will transfer to a coupled rack and from that to the equipment. If the floor is high-mass (concrete), it would require a lot of energy to induce substantial vibration, but a suspended wooden floor will vibrate like a drum (and probably quite audibly). If the floor is vibrating, and your rack is coupled to the floor, the rack will also absorb that energy and vibrate. If it's isolated from the floor, the energy won't be transferred (eg. it'll be dissipated as heat via the isolation material like sorbothane). Things get more complicated, I guess, when you factor in the effect of sound waves hitting the coupled gear and rack and how that energy interacts phase-wise with that arriving from the floor. Way above my pay-grade.

Of course, with solid-state gear, the effect of vibration on sound may be so low as to be negligible but I lack the evidence or theory to back up that statement (aside from a couple of "just-so" at-home "experiments" on the web).

Well the person in the forum link who uses that technology lives in the US and has always had a suspended wood floor so that must shoot that theory.

 

[DimitryZ]

I just came about the Star Sound Technologies website a couple days ago when searching “resonant energy transfer”. I believe it’s a term used in physics and I was curious to read more about it.

The company makes many products that range in price from $80 to up to $9,000. The cuts into the metal shelves are there so that the brass cones can be strategically fastened to contact the bottom of the component in the appropriate place.

http://starsoundtechnologies.com/faq.php

I don’t see any reason why their products wouldn’t work on a suspended wood floor. It’s an American company and a great percentage of homes have that type of flooring.

None of the products that claim to permanently "drain" vibration energy work.

Speakers generate mechanical and acoustic vibration energy. This energy will excite a resonant response in the equipment. Coupling equipment through stiff connection to the floor will generally help in reducing the acoustic response, but is likely to increase the mechanical response. Isolating the components can reduce the mechanical transfer but is usually ineffective for case resonance. Hence a number of commercial products for case damping (Isodamp line) that are made for automotive and aircraft industry.

The product in question is one of endless iterations of a spiked platform, in existence for 50 years. It's "innovation" as far as I can see, is the use of weakened sheet metal shelf (inexpensive to make, btw), that allows for some isolation in the low frequencies as well as addition of vibration energy in the midband, where the sheet metal will have MANY resonances as it picks up speaker acoustic energy.

The product may have a unique sonic signature with microphonic equipment - dry bass and a live midrange that some folks may prefer to standard sound - it may sound superficially "exciting."