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Resonant energy transfer

Discussion in 'audio' started by John, Dec 28, 2021.

  1. John

    John Rack’em Up!

    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
  2. h.g.

    h.g. Retired

    It wasn't clear from either post after bailing out after a few paragraphs what is being proposed. I think you might get more of a response if people could more easily understand the topic.

    Air and structure-borne sound are thoroughly understood topics with plenty of text books, university courses and a significant number of industrial products (ones that create measurable improvements that often have to be in form that is suitable for standing up in court due to regulations). What can you see in either source that suggests they may be correct (in whatever they are proposing) and that long established undergrad level acoustical engineering is incorrect? Not intending to have a dig just genuinely curious why you see something completely different to me at the end of those two links.
    tuga likes this.
  3. John

    John Rack’em Up!

    I’ve purchased HiFi products that do a similar type of thing and it’s interesting to me reading more about the topic. I thought it might be interesting to others though it might turn off those who have ascribe to a different orthodoxy.

    Here’s a bit that describes the goal:

    The unique direct-coupled Audio Point™ design of Sistrum Platforms allows a pre-determined pattern of energy, known as Coulomb Friction; to develop and dissipate via a high-speed calculated conductive pathway to earth's ground.
  4. h.g.

    h.g. Retired

    What thing is this? Can you point at a diagram or a paragraph explaining what is being proposed?

    Yes I understand that people adopt different ways of reasoning but what is at the end of your links appears such an extreme example of technical ignorance (note technical not necessarily other forms) and wild surmising it becomes more interesting why anyone would pay attention to it than the details of whatever is being specifically proposed (which I still don't know but perhaps nothing is being proposed?).

    OK that was blunt but there is something basic and fundamental that I have no handle on that leads to some audiophiles assigning high value to the type of thing that is on the end of your links and a low value to conflicting science, engineering and conventional knowledge. I would like to understand why because this way of looking at things is pretty widespread and in others areas is not necessarily as harmless as choosing between luxury goods.
  5. John

    John Rack’em Up!

    This is a common theme:

    “ allows a pre-determined pattern of energy, known as Coulomb Friction; to develop and dissipate via a high-speed calculated conductive pathway to earth's ground.”

    Vs trapping the energy and impeding it’s pathway to ground.
  6. h.g.

    h.g. Retired

    The problem is that there is little understandable meaning which will require people to not only lack technical understanding themselves but to consider whoever is inventing or passing on this drivel to be of higher status than those with the relevant technical understanding. What makes this possible?

    Coulomb friction is a force not energy. A pre-determined pattern of energy would seem to have no meaning beyond being a set of technical sounding words. Develop also seems to have no meaning in this context. Energy is dissipated (or more strictly transferred) when a body does work against a force. The (rate of) energy dissipated (or more strictly converted to an unwanted form of energy like heat) by a friction force opposing the motion of a body (which doesn't seem to be specified) will be the product of force and velocity in the direction of the force (school level physics). A high speed calculated (calculated???) conductive pathway to earth's ground again seems largely meaningless in this context.

    The point of isolation is to prevent energy being transferred from one place to another.

    I'm not sure what one is supposed to understand by ground beyond a technical sounding word. There is a remote possibility some meaning is intended but it seems remote.

    Generally if the topic is the transfer of energy and the word impedance (or admittance sometimes) is not being used then you are unlikely to be looking at a technically reasonable explanation. It is possible but impedance is the go-to concept when discussing how energy is transferred between interacting bodies.

    What do you understand from the snippet posted?
    JimmyB and mansr like this.
  7. John

    John Rack’em Up!

    I lost you when you said drivel.
    eevo1969 likes this.
  8. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    As ever, Baloney Baffles Brains is a useful ploy for saledroids. :)
    Rockmeister likes this.
  9. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig Trade: ^'- -'^

    I doubt that is true and I certainly don't think this understanding is being routinely applied to Hi-Fi in a constructive way. While I don't agree with the extreme application of their ideas, I certainly think this article displays an understanding of what's going on that is largely correct and of benefit for any audiophile to think about.
    John likes this.
  10. h.g.

    h.g. Retired

    Why not? You must be using something to come to this albeit tentative conclusion?

    By companies employing competent engineers like Neumann, Genelec, KEF and the like?

    By companies that require their customers to be ignorant of basic technical information in order that they can be persuaded to pay high prices for modestly performing hardware?

    Like energy being a force? Presumably you don't recall the difference from school but for those that do they will see dishonesty. Perhaps you also see dishonesty but don't consider it to be particularly important? In the same way that many that supported Johnson seemed to know he was dishonest, incompetent, etc... but didn't seem to consider it relevant and that it wouldn't have consequences? There's something going on that I really don't get. What meaning can you extract from the snippet posted above?
    Sean K and JimmyB like this.
  11. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    It doesn't matter what you want to call it but to get energy transfer there has to be a physical mechanism to couple the 'donor' and the 'acceptor' together. So let's identify what that is first... @h.g. is quite right, we have to define the terms accurately so we all know what we are talking about.
  12. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

    Why do you bother???? It's a troll thread. File with 5G masts controlling the chips injected in the vaccine and Bill Gates running the world...
    kensalriser, guydarryl and gavreid like this.
  13. gustav_errata

    gustav_errata pfm Member

    In the first link, the author confuses coupling with isolation.

    The second link is a soup of techno-babble about things like "airborne resonance". I'm no mechanical engineer but I don't think that phrase has any meaning. Maybe they mean resonance that occurs in a material at a frequency and amplitude that is audible. Anyway it seems they use all the techno-babble to justify coupling albeit with a fancy invented name.
    JimmyB likes this.
  14. John

    John Rack’em Up!

  15. chord

    chord pfm Member

    I see again: the heavy-stand-belivers never have a coffee with the ultra-light-stand-belivers.

    Most of the hifiers think that the heavy mass-orientated vibration killing is a right way.
    Few of them think that is a wrong way.

    I am a protestant too. If you let your stand to vibrate it means that this amount of vibration is physically removed from your box/cabinet - and it was the main goal, wasn't?
    I am afraid I won't convince any mass-beliver... and these links either.
  16. John

    John Rack’em Up!

    I see it more as the damaging vibrations are in the equipment themselves and that the purpose of the devices is to give a path for the vibration to go. His point seems to be that a lot of isolation devices fail to do that or are not designed with that goal in mind. They end up trapping the vibrations in the equipment which is damaging to the sound.
    h.g. likes this.
  17. JimmyB

    JimmyB pfm Member

    I'm going to bring a new product to market I think. Working on my marketing speak below....

    'It is EXTREMELY important to isolate a solid state amplifier from vibrations as within the chips themselves there is no vibration resistance layering and especially in modern surface mount components where the legs might offer some bounce. Vibration can lead to noodling© of the signals and from there, further amplification stages, particularly power amplification can severely impact on sound quality of the music. You'll hear these as a muddying of the sound and especially in complex passages where feedback will conflate to over-noodle© the music.
    For this very reason we have started to produce a silicon based on the latest Silicon Carbide processes AND more importantly using in-built damping layers within the Silicon Carbide layers and under the chip when packaged. Gold wire is used to ensure the best contact with the outside world and ceramic packages are used instead of plastic to form a solid reference box around the system.'

    Just need a name for this and I'll start to market it. Any suggestions? Must be made using at least four words suggesting awesome and expensive in any order.
    NeilK and Arkless Electronics like this.
  18. h.g.

    h.g. Retired

    What determines if the damaging vibrations will want to follow the path? Force of personality, faith, or something a bit more along the lines of what was taught at school? (Setting aside questions of what vibrations might be and what is and is not transported.)

    Devices that isolate are devices that isolate. The fact they fail to make a cup of tea is not a reasonable criticism. You should look to a tea maker for that. Unless you need to isolate of course.

    If the vibrations are trapped in the equipment and you are sitting on the sofa outside the equipment where they can't get at you surely that is a good thing rather than a bad one? Or do the vibrations damage the sound inside the equipment and the sound rather than vibrations then limps over to you on the sofa? (Setting aside questions about what sound and vibration might be).

    OK I apologise for teasing but if you were to look more to the science taught at school rather than the pontifications of fruitcakes posting on the web you would be a lot less open to it. Which brings us back to the baffling question of why you are looking to and trusting such sources in the first place.
  19. Rug Doc

    Rug Doc pfm Member

    My head hurts.

    I prefer to think about cables and how lifting them above the ground can negate the magnetic field distortion effect created by the cables themselves interacting with the earth.
  20. sq225917

    sq225917 Bit of this, bit of that

    Nanomolecular interstitial vibration curation.

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