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Remembrance Day

Discussion in 'off topic' started by flatpopely, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    I took part in a service and parade today, what an honour to be part of remembering those who gave their lives for us.
  2. Martin D

    Martin D Libertarian Division

    shame Cameron attended after selling weapons to a bunch of dictator thugs in the middle east which was announced the same day Obama won the US election
  3. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    And that post is indicative of a lack of respect, those who died and suffered in conflicts deserve more than that shallow comment, shame on you. Put aside your differences...remember 'lest we forget'
  4. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    so you're saying being polite about a ceremony is more important than protesting current, needless wars? i'm with martin on this.

  5. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    No, I'm saying have honour and respect as a person for those that laid the ultimate sacrifice for you.
  6. Tony Lockhart

    Tony Lockhart Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity

    I've no doubt Vuk was sat comfortably and safely in his chair instead of properly protesting. Therefore, his view in the context of this thread is worthless.

  7. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I don't see any mutual exclusivity here. One can respect the fallen and consider Cameron a twunt.
  8. flatpopely

    flatpopely Prog Rock/Moderator

    I did not notice any polite comment, just political comment.

    Interesting to note this is the only thread on the subject today, how sad.
  9. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    I agree.
    I had actually been thinking about this quite a lot yesterday and meant to post a thread. Unfortunately I was drawn to other (family) issues for most of today.

    IMHO, Remembrance Sunday is about acknowledging and paying respects to all who have died in, or been affected by, War.

    The most obvious are 'The Fallen', especially in WW1 and WW2.

    Extend this to include those in the numerous conflicts since.

    But what I also feel is that we should remember all those affected. What about all those poor sods trying to survive in Syria now?

    What about those left in UK, Germany, France, Russia, Japan, and numerous other countries after WW2? None of them chose War.

    My Dad survived WW2, but was never the same again according to those who knew him pre-war. He had a short (56 years) and pretty miserable life. This had knock ons to my Mum and many others.

    My Grandfather was awarded the Military Medal in WW1. He was a lovely bloke but would never discuss it and got quite angry if I pressed him to tell me more. That was not like him at all.

    My old Mum is in a home. She still has a picture of a chap she knew before she met my Dad. The poor sod died when HMS Hood was blown to bits, but Mum has never forgotten him. In her poor Alzheimer's riddled mind, the last time she saw him was crossing the school field she can see opposite her old folks home, walking into a hail of Machine Gun fire.
    There are many more victims than 'The Fallen'.

  10. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    the whole remembrance day thing has become highly politicized and has a strong flavour of militarism about it. i also find it hypocritical of canada, the UK and USA to put on a show of commemoration whilst engaged in an illegal war right now and creating new people to be commemorated every day.

  11. Blzebub

    Blzebub Banned

    vuk, it's about people who have died in war, and that's the beginning and end of it.

    I have a son who wants to join the Marines. They can't choose their war.
  12. Tony Lockhart

    Tony Lockhart Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity

    Jeepers Vuk. There are starving people in this world, so are you telling me you give all your disposable income to them? Excuse us when we don't piss on you if you catch fire.
  13. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    But to a degree the rest of us can. The most important thing IMO is to protest very loudly against wars. I was out cycling today so I completely forgot about Remembrance Sunday, but I did march against the war in Iraq, sign petitions etc etc etc - I did what ever I could to stand between a stupid and wrong-headed government and their unnecessary slaughter. If more people did similar governments would not get away with this shit and people wouldn't be dying in their hundreds for no good reason. Remembrance Sunday is too late - one needs to stand up long before that.

    PS for clarity I'm not criticising RS as an event, it's an important tradition. I just want to stop adding to the misery.
  14. Blzebub

    Blzebub Banned

    Sure, but choose the other 364 days to do that. Do you think I want my kiddo in Afghan?
  15. zener

    zener fluff

  16. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    I take some of your points, but, innocent people are still affected by war. The vast bulk of those fighting and dying are innocent.

    I laid wreaths at memorials several times. I did not distance myself from those other reps who were politically distant from me.
    In a sense, we were each witnessing the stupidity of the other.

  17. Blzebub

    Blzebub Banned

    I should add that I don't want to see any other kiddos in Afghan (or other theatres of war) either. The people dying are, for the most part, people I regard as children, and it is very upsetting and such a waste of potential.
  18. Jonathan Ribee

    Jonathan Ribee Unavailable at present

    You could spend the rest of you life arguing about the effectiveness of (to take one example) RAF Bomber Command in WWII. Weighing up the massive loss of civilian life due to approximate bomb aiming, the real impact on the industrial capacity of Nazi Germany, the amount of material and personnel that were tied up on the air war that didn't go to the Russian or African / Italian fronts. And the basic morality of deliberately creating firestorms, some which killed tens of thousands of people per raid.

    I'm saying we could - as an example - please let us not!

    But also, about 50% of Bomber Commands aircrew lost their lives between 1939 and 1945. Throughout most of the war for every 20 aircraft that went out, 1 did not come back. There was a 1 in 6 chance of surviving a first tour of 30 operations. And a 1 in 40 chance of surviving two tours. Being Bomber Command Aircrew was less survivable than being a front line Infantry Officer in WWI. These people were not idiots, they navigated aircraft, used complicated machinery, understood the principles of aviation and fluid dynamics. They could very easily calculate the odds. But they kept doing it. Because the alternative was inconceivable.

    There is a massive separation between the morality of any given war and the people who die in it.

    The one thing that pisses me off is that remembrance is all about "services" and is tied up with christian rhetoric. So I observe in my own way, quite a lot more than once a year. But observe I do.


    [Sculpture on a road beside the site of one of the old East Yorkshire WWII bomber bases]
  19. hughjampton

    hughjampton pfm Member

    I think many people had that experience. My mother said the same about my father; and the father I knew as a small child in the years after the war was very often a raving madman. He would fly into terrifying rages and throw things against the wall.

    It was only thirty years later when he suffered a sort of breakdown on holiday, and had to immediately drive hundreds of miles home that the true story of what he'd gone through started to come out. He had suppressed it at the time and later by an act of will, and refused to give way to what he termed fear. But he was suffering from what by then was finally being realised to be posttraumatic stress disorder, and through catharsis and writing about his experiences he started to come to terms with what had gone on.

    His physiological trauma was mainly due to one event. But there is the corrosive affect of constant fear in the background all the time for servicemen on active duty, and fear eats the soul.

    Remembrance Day grew out of the Great War, and was about remembering those who were never coming back; and it was personal since almost everyone knew someone who wasn't coming back. In the last ten years though I detect a growing sense that there is starting to be more a celebration of our armed forces in the country, and that is reflected somewhat, I put it no higher than that, in current Armistice Day events.

    Something more of the old duice et decorum est pro patra mori, has been abroad in the air since we became sucked into American wars after September the 11th I think.

    I think the remembrance of old wars should warn us against being maneuvered into new ones, and that Wilfred Owen's lines are the most appropriate way of looking at Remembrance Day.

  20. tones

    tones Tones deaf

    I confess to finding Remembrance services deeply moving. All those young lives cut off before their time. However, I also remember the maxim of Clausewitz in Von Krieg, translated (not 100% accurately, but near enough) as "war is politics continued by other means". That is, if we can't get what is rightfully ours by talking about it, we'll get it by fighting about it. In other words, wars are not caused by soldiers, but by politicians, who invariably sit well away from it and enjoy life, while the poor bloody infantry gets on with it. This was especially bad in the case of Iraq, where we at home just get on with life and let the soldiers do the fighting and dying.

    To me, it's all tied up with the curse of the modern nation state. People tend to forget that this is a relatively recent innovation, essentially a product of the Thirty Years' War. So, we have a particularly silly song to sing and an oddly-coloured bit of cloth to salute and apparently die for, or under which to go forth and kill other young men against whom we have precisely nothing, and whose company we might well very much enjoy. The whole thing is absolutely crazy, but there's no stopping it.

    How one draws this particular poison from the human race I have no idea. And it'll probably get worse, especially as the planet begins to hit the buffers with regard to natural resources and their ownership and domination. Sadly, this means that Remembrance Day will remain in business for a long time to come.

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