advertisement


REL sub and Linn Kairn problem

Nye Samuel

Nye Samuel

Herr Katze
I finally set up the REL T Zero with a Linn Kairn/LK140 running it from the spare outputs on the LK140...the Kairn inverts the phase ..so on the LK140...Red into black and black into red...but to prevent problems with the LK140...the sub was wired red/yellow to red and black to black....the REL was connected to the LK140 via the high level cable.

Result was nothing...zero ...so I thought the sub was duff...I tried it out with a short RCA cable...ie low level between the Kairn and the REL and the sub worked fine...so on the suggestion of @Stuart Frazer ....I connected up my Naim DAC V1 and used it as a preamp...I disconnected the Kairn....The DAC V1 does not invert the phase...so red to red and black to black for the speaker cables and red/yellow to red and black to black for the REL into the LK140 and via the high level cable into the REL....And it worked as it should...tested with Massive Attack's Angel and Bach organ music.

Most reviews including REL recommends using the high level cable and I feel it is better but clearly the Kairn's phase inversion causes a problem...I toggled the phase lever on the REL whilst using the Kairn and that didn't do anything.

The question is why is this happening? The two obvious choices is use a low level RCA connection between the Kairn and the REL or change the amplifier to a non phase inverting amplifier...Or is there a way I can connect my Kain to the REL with the high level cable. Using the DAC as a preamp is ok the music is not as good as when I use the Kairn ...Any suggestions?
 
Your descriptions as clear as mud but my suspicion is you are shorting the output to the sub to ground by switching the wire over.
Low level should be best and if there is a phase invert on the sub then jobs a gud 'n. In theory.
 
I thought that was quite clear...the speaker cables are inverted as per the Linn Kairn Manual but the REL cables were not inverted. With the high level cable...no output was received by the sub

The sub worked with the Kairn using a low level lead and with the Naim DAC V1 as a preamp using the high level cable from the LK140.
 
If the high level inputs on the sub are actually balanced then you could invert the cables but if not balanced then the black could well be grounded and then if both amp and sub have a ground connection the output to the sub would be short circuited and if this is a speaker output from the power amp it could blow the power amp. I'm not familiar with any of the kit so only making generic observations. I can't see the issue with just using the low level inputs if that works. If the sub has phase invert then it must be correct in one of the two settings.
 
As Arkless suggests you are shorting the loudspeaker output of the amp. It's a competent amp so it should survive, but it's not going to work.

Use the low level, or use the high level black/black to the REL and in either case probably flip the invert switch.

Or just live with inverted absolute phase, it's not really a big deal on most material. And introducing a separate sub puts you into 'whatever works, works' territory, especially on phase.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Your descriptions as clear as mud but my suspicion is you are shorting the output to the sub to ground by switching the wire over.
Low level should be best and if there is a phase invert on the sub then jobs a gud 'n. In theory.
Click to expand...
No, I instructed the OP NOT to invert the high level speaker leads to the sub because it could/would result in shorting the output stage of the LK140… so he did as I’d described and flipped the phase on the sub to keep it in phase with the main speakers… for some reason, and I can’t think for the life of me why, but he got no sound from the sub doing this. It should have worked, it’s how the sub would be connected to any conventional, non inverting amp.

My solution to the above issue would of course be to just use the low level inputs. I do anyway because I use a MiniDSP along with a calibration mic to properly integrate the sub.
 
Paul R said:
As Arkless suggests you are shorting the loudspeaker output of the amp. It's a competent amp so it should survive, but it's not going to work.

Use the low level, or use the high level black/black to the REL and in either case probably flip the invert switch.

Or just live with inverted absolute phase, it's not really a big deal on most material. And introducing a separate sub puts you into 'whatever works, works' territory, especially on phase.
Click to expand...
NEVER short the output stage of a Linn amp (or any amp for that matter), they don’t like it, I’ve had a few my way after people have done this and blown them, and the newer amps (LK140 included) are a PITA to fix because they have multi layer PCBs, and the traces can be damaged internally. It’s a nightmare to fix them and involves chopping traces and running bodge wires. I accidentally shorted my own Linn Majik when I was a kid (well 18 years old) and despite having the technical competence to get it up and running again, I still sent it back to Linn, cost £150 and essentially the only original part was the serial number when it came back. This isn’t an option for anything from the LK range anymore.
 
Low level should be used where possible as it means less in the signal path. If using high level then you are taking an output from the power amp and then attenuating back down to "pre out" level in the sub!
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Low level should be used where possible as it means less in the signal path. If using high level then you are taking an output from the power amp and then attenuating back down to "pre out" level in the sub!
Click to expand...

Why then do REL recommend using their high level connection for 2 channel systems?
 
Arkless Electronics said:
No idea but it's definitely less good than low level.
Click to expand...

From REL's website....'
High Level Input: Using the High Level input is always the best option. Using the High Level Input, instead of the Low Level Input, and connecting to the speaker output terminals of your amplifier is one of the unique secrets of REL’s success. When using the High Level input, your REL is fed the same signal that your main speakers are receiving. When connecting to the High Level input on the REL from the amplifier, you capture the sonic signature of your main system, including the tonal balance and timing cues of the entire electronics chain. This is a very important point and together with REL’s Active Bass Controller (ABC), ensures far superior system integration of the sub-bass with the main system.'
 
Nye Samuel said:
From REL's website....'
High Level Input: Using the High Level input is always the best option. Using the High Level Input, instead of the Low Level Input, and connecting to the speaker output terminals of your amplifier is one of the unique secrets of REL’s success. When using the High Level input, your REL is fed the same signal that your main speakers are receiving. When connecting to the High Level input on the REL from the amplifier, you capture the sonic signature of your main system, including the tonal balance and timing cues of the entire electronics chain. This is a very important point and together with REL’s Active Bass Controller (ABC), ensures far superior system integration of the sub-bass with the main system.'
Click to expand...

That's utter bollox!
 
Nye Samuel said:
I am quoting from the REL website...I, unlike you, am not sufficiently skilled or knowledgeable to make that judgement...so please indulge me....please explain. simply, the basis for your comment.
Click to expand...

It's entirely marketing talk techno babble with no meaning or basis in fact.

There's an old "rule of thumb" in electronics that you should never amplify then attenuate for a start and doing it as they suggest breaks this.

A low level output from the pre amp means the purest possible signal, ie from before the hiss, hum, and distortion of the power amp.

I guess they suggest high level because everyone has an amplifier driving the main speakers but many will not have access to a "pre out"...especially a spare "pre out"... without making up "Y" leads anyway!

The only technical basis for their advice would be if using certain power amps with issues at the bass end, mainly certain valve amps and vintage (ie pre 1972 ish) SS amps which have such bad phase shift at the bottom end that using the pure output at low level could cause a phase discontinuity in the bass which would be unpredictable with such amplifiers. VERY few SS amps made after around '75 ish would have any such problems. Most amps with such issues would have a pretty early bass roll off so you would be feeding the sub a signal that rolls off below say 35 Hz anyway!
 
Arkless Electronics said:
It's entirely marketing talk techno babble with no meaning or basis in fact.

There's an old "rule of thumb" in electronics that you should never amplify then attenuate for a start and doing it as they suggest breaks this.

A low level output from the pre amp means the purest possible signal, ie from before the hiss, hum, and distortion of the power amp.

I guess they suggest high level because everyone has an amplifier driving the main speakers but many will not have access to a "pre out"...especially a spare "pre out"... without making up "Y" leads anyway!

The only technical basis for their advice would be if using certain power amps with issues at the bass end, mainly certain valve amps and vintage (ie pre 1972 ish) SS amps which have such bad phase shift at the bottom end that using the pure output at low level could cause a phase discontinuity in the bass which would be unpredictable with such amplifiers. VERY few SS amps made after around '75 ish would have any such problems. Most amps with such issues would have a pretty early bass roll off so you would be feeding the sub a signal that rolls off below say 35 Hz anyway!
Click to expand...

Thank you...I see what you mean and the Kairn has three preamp outputs for bi or tri-wiring/bi or tri-amping....so I have the spare capacity to run a RCA sub interconnect to the low input of the REL sub...:)
 
linnfomaniac83 said:
No, I instructed the OP NOT to invert the high level speaker leads to the sub because it could/would result in shorting the output stage of the LK140… so he did as I’d described and flipped the phase on the sub to keep it in phase with the main speakers… for some reason, and I can’t think for the life of me why, but he got no sound from the sub doing this. It should have worked, it’s how the sub would be connected to any conventional, non inverting amp.

My solution to the above issue would of course be to just use the low level inputs. I do anyway because I use a MiniDSP along with a calibration mic to properly integrate the sub.
Click to expand...
I read it as no sound at all.

The LK140 is a chip amp, IIRC, I would expect it to have S/C protection whether Linn intended it or not. And especially when the short involves lengths of speaker cable and possibly an earth connection.

But as a rule, obviously, don't short your amp outputs, whomever made them.

And it makes no sense to connect a sub to the speakers when you can connect at line level.
 
Paul R said:
I read it as no sound at all.

The LK140 is a chip amp, IIRC, I would expect it to have S/C protection whether Linn intended it or not. And especially when the short involves lengths of speaker cable and possibly an earth connection.

But as a rule, obviously, don't short your amp outputs, whomever made them.

And it makes no sense to connect a sub to the speakers when you can connect at line level.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen a few with fried output devices, only ever as a result of user error (shorts), they’re otherwise a very dependable amp.
 
I get an output to the sub via the low level with the Kairn and with the high level using the Naim DAC V1 but not the Kairn...so I am getting an appropriate length low-level interconnect from Mark Grant.

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions.
 
Same, but different…
Linn Wakonda, Linn LK 85 x2 aktiv with Katan cards, Linn Katans on their lead shot-filled stands, REL B3 x1
Perhaps I’m naive, but I figure the manufacturer, REL, know their gear better than I.
The B3 gets its juice from the bass amp by way of the high output.
After a bit of fiddling with REL settings plus REL placement in the room’s corner, the REL integrates beautifully. It disappears, leaving the illusion that the small Katans are making deep bass.
My $0.02 U.S.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top