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Regarding LS3/5A and others...

N

Navyblue

Member
Lately I am on a quest to audition as many small speakers as possible, with the intention to figure out the path forward.

The 2 standouts for me are Harbeth P3ESR-XD and Rogers LS 3/5a.

The rests include Spendor (A1, Classic 3/4, Classic 4/5), Proac (Tablette 10, Tablette 10 Signature, DB3), Dali Menuet SE, Monitor Audio Gold 100, Dynaudio (Emit 10, Evoke 10), Sonus Faber Lumina 2, Neat Acoustics Ministra, Elac (BS 312, BS 403), Magnepan LRS (ok this is not that small), Focal Aria 906.

For me, the P3ESR-XD has the ability to make some select recordings, but not all, sound more seductive. I attempted to recreate this "seductiveness" with all other speakers on the list and I mostly failed. For me, this makes this speaker special. I think some people mentioned this.

For my session with LS 3/5a, I am very impressed with it's ability to image and sound stage. It projects vocals forward in a palpable and 3D way. Some reviews did mentioned this.

However I auditioned most of the brands in different rooms, systems and days. So it's apple to orange comparison at best. I am still trying to learn about LS 3/5a so please bear with me.

Question 1:
For those of you who have compared these speakers directly, Does the LS 3/5a indeed image and sound stage much better than other speakers I mentioned? Particularly compared to other LS 3/5a inspired models like the P3s?

Question 2:
For the 15 ohms version, is the consensus to go for new production replicas instead of the vintage?

Question 3:
Isn't the 11 ohms version supposed to be the improved version of the 15 ohms version? In the used market I am looking at some vintage Spendor and KEF 11 ohms version. Should I go for those instead should I decide on the LS 3/5a path? Should I be concerned about driver degradation?

Thank you for reading.
 
Navyblue said:
Question 2:
For the 15 ohms version, is the consensus to go for new production replicas instead of the vintage?
Click to expand...

The second hand market still values excellent condition original very highly, higher than a new pair of Falcons in many cases. If buying purely for performance buying new certainly guarantees performance, pair matching etc. The Kef units can unquestionably go off spec with time, I’ve seen it first hand with my similar to 15 Ohm LS3/5A-vintage JR149s.

Navyblue said:
Question 3:
Isn't the 11 ohms version supposed to be the improved version of the 15 ohms version? In the used market I am looking at some vintage Spendor and KEF 11 ohms version. Should I go for those instead should I decide on the LS 3/5a path? Should I be concerned about driver degradation?
Click to expand...

It isn’t that simple. The 11 Ohm model was a rework due to Kef changing the spec of the B110. This necessitated a change to the crossover. It is actually a very different crossover design using resistors rather than the autotransformers in the 15 Ohm version. I’d not consider the 11 Ohm version to be ‘improved’, it is just electro-mechanically different in some key areas due to driver supply changes. I’ve never directly compared them. The used marketplace values the 15 Ohm version rather more highly.

PS The comparisons I’ve made are against JR149s and Spendor S3/5Rs, so nothing on your list, and really all I’d commit to is they are all lovely though rather different loudspeakers. LS3/5As are definitely worth living with for a while, they are remarkable little speakers. Very valve amp friendly too if that is significant (I’m certain that is part of the reason for the cult following, many little speakers just aren’t).
 
Out of the speakers on your list I have owned P3ESRs (not XD) & Focal 906. Another speaker you should add to your audition list that I have owned are the Amphion Argon1.
I currently own Stirling V3s & Spendor 11 ohm LS3/5A.

If I was using exclusively powerfull SS amps I would probably have never sold the Amphions, they are superb little speakers with a lovely liquid midrange. Very tolerant of placement as well. Unfortunately they did not work at all with my Leak Stereo 20, sounding flat & lifeless.

The Focals were a bit of a surprise working really well with the Leak. Just found it hard to live with the looks so when a pair of well priced Harbeth P3ESRs popped up I took the plunge. Really glad I did, lovely little speakers, and yes, if you can place them correctly they (like the Stirlings & Spendors I have) do imaging & soundstage better than all the other speakers I've owned.

Really regretted selling the Harbeths & went through a few speakers (Amphion Argon 3S, the aforementioned Argon1s, Tannoy Chesters & Kef LS50s) before buying some Stirling V2s, since upgraded to the V3.

You can probably tell I really like LS3/5A type speakers. As Tony mentions, you do not state whether you are looking at vintage or modern LS3/5As. If looking at modern then you should definitely be looking at the Falcons as well as the Stirling & Graham Audio equivalents if at all possible.

If looking at vintage then I suppose a lot will depend on your usage requirements. Do you want a speaker to listen to everyday or are you a collector looking to cash in in a couple of years time? If you want a speaker to use every day then just buy on condition & don't worry about whether they are 11 or 15 ohm versions. In fact I would probably favour the 11 ohm models because, as I understand it, part of the reason for Kef changing the specs of the B110 was problems with production consistency of the SP1003 which in theory means 11 ohm versions are more likely to be in spec.

If you are looking as an investment then the best condition 15 ohm Rogers you can find are probably the safest bet, but be aware, there are a lot of fakes out there.

TS
 
Like Tony, I have owned Harbeth P3s and enjoyed them immensely.
Sold them to finance the purchase of Stirling V3s.

I would have liked to have kept the Harbeths, but really couldn’t afford to
own both.

At the moment I’m running Falcon Q7s, as they do seem to have a real symmetry with the
Quad 34/306 amplifier.

I have found, over time, there are many small speakers I could happily live with,
but do enjoy trying out different models.

Ironically, the small speakers I lived with the longest were a pair of original
Wharfedale Diamonds in my University Lab.
I listened to them every day for many years.
 
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For clarity: I’ve never owned nor compared Harbeth P3s of any version. I’ve really nothing to comment on there.

My little speaker history across the past 40+ years is: JR149, Kef R101, Linn Kan I & II, ProAc Tablette 50 Sig & Reference 8 Sig, and more recently revisiting JR149s, Spendor S3/5Rs and Falcon LS3/5As. Any Harbeths I’ve owned are far bigger; Compact 7ES and SHL5.
 
The 11 ohm LS3/5a won the HiFi News multi unit "shootout" back in the early 2000s. Allowing for a little noise in the evaluation, I don't think there's any difference between the11 ohm and 15 ohm versions (after all, the BBC's position was the 11 ohm version be a drop-in replacement for the 15 ohm). As far as price is concerned, the 15 ohm version, especially the "white belly" variety (!) are a bit of a status symbol to far eastern collectors. This has driven up the market price for a product which now certainly doesn't meet specs. The 11 ohm version is a far better prospect (I've owned both). I'd also get an older 11 ohm version over any of the "newer" versions available at a ridiculous price today!
 
On stevehoffman.tv is a user ls35a who has owned almost every pair pof LS3/5A, the Harbeths P3ESR, Tablette 10's and after 40 years found the speaker "he had been looked for all that time" and it is the Falcon Q7 complete@home.

Resale value is not as high as for the LS3/5A as they are not a "cult loudspeaker".

Recently I bought the Q7 to replace some other speakers, mainly because I hate anything made out of pressed cardboard, errr.... MDF. Very few speakers are still made with proper plywood and proper damping on the inside.

Be aware that the LS3/5A may be difficult to integrate with a sub, imho the Q7 is OK without a sub.

If buying "pre loved" you may want to consider the Kef 101 as well. If doing things on a shoe string and are not adverse to building speakers then you'll have other options too. The late Jeff Bagby's Continuum II, the Monacor LS5/19, Wilmslow Audio LS3 and LS3 Plus amongst others. The latter two you can buy flat pack cabinet packs for.
 
Thanks guys for your valuable inputs!

I use solid state amps in the beginning. After experiencing my second amp deaths, I went exclusively tube. Mostly because I am cheap, when I buy expensive stuffs I expect them to last forever. Tube amps end to be simple and I should be able to fix them if something goes wrong. I am currently building a 300B SET that might never get finished. My "temporary" amp that looks very much permanent currently is the Line Magnetic LM-211ia, an EL34 PP amp.

My current speaker is the Triangle Comete 40th Anniversary. I bought it largely because it looks pretty and has 90db/W/m sensitivity, which I thought would be helpful for tube amps. A review says they can sound very dynamic with powerful amps, I am not hearing that at the moment with my tube amps. I might have to build a powerful SS amp sometime down the road.

I think my setup generally performs well in all aspects. I don't listen loud, and I listen to mostly vocal and acoustic instruments. If I have one complain, it would be I need to keep volume on the low side to have great imaging. When the volume gets to moderate I get that wall of sound effect and imaging became confused. I suspect its because my room is too small, or it could be my amp distortion going up. My room is 9'x18'. The speakers are 5' apart. My head is 6' away from the speakers.

Then, I had pair of Dali Opticon 1 in my listening room for a few weeks. They are tiny speakers with 4.5" woofer at 1/3 the price of my current speaker. I never had such a small speaker and never thought much of them, but I was impressed. This is why I think we should keep an open mind in this hobby. The vocal stood out more and had more solidity. The imaging and sound stage was more convincing. They also seem more dynamic. It doesn't have the bass punch or the treble refinement of the Comete, but if I am honest to myself I don't feel the Opticon 1 is much of a downgrade despite the hue price difference. So I had to listen to the Famed Dali Menuet which is more comparable in price.

After hearing the Menuet, it's not a bad speaker, but I wasn't as impressed as I should be. I'm not sure if it was because the vocal didn't stood out as much as the Opticon 1 I heard, or was it because the store setup wasn't great, or was I just smitten earlier by the P3ESR-XD.

Like I said earlier, I am cheap. I expect my speaker to last forever too. A speaker with ferrofluid tweeter seems like a speaker with an expiration date. Both Dali and Harbeth use ferrofluid.

One thing for sure is the LS3/5a has many of the qualities I like with the Opticon 1, if not surpassing them. Except for the bass. Also no ferrofluid. If I were to rely on logic alone, I should go the Q7 path or the Proac tablette 10 Signature (air cooled tweeter). Tomorrow I am going to listen to the Rogers LS3/5A and the Proac Tablette 10 (not the signature sadly) again.

On the used market side, I am looking at a Spendor 15 ohm, with that "white belly'. Why is it sought after though? I thought "white belly" is supposed to be a bad thing? Judging from how long it had been up, I think the demand is not that strong around here. I don't mind it as an investment, having a "limited edition" is cool too, but it is only an investment if the drivers keep working. I am also looking at the 11 ohm KEF with the piano black finish. Both of these cost more than a falcon gold badge, but less than the P3ESR-XD.
 
AmadeusMozart said:
Be aware that the LS3/5A may be difficult to integrate with a sub, imho the Q7 is OK without a sub.
Click to expand...

The ability to work with a sub would be a pro for me. Do you think the Q7 works well enough with a sub like most modern speakers typically do?

Talking about the late Jeff Bagby, I was actually considering the Auricle with the RAAL tweeter. But I have no experience with ribbon tweeters. In my auditions, the speakers that I am impressed with their imaging, they are always small speakers with dome tweeters. Not saying they won't image well, but it's an unknown for me. If this is not a problem for ribbon tweeters, I might be taking this plunge. For a bit more than the price of a pair of P3ESR-XD, I could build both the Auricle and Falcon LS3/5A.
 
I have a view on question 1 having owned the Falcon LS3/5a and Harbeth P3ESR at the same time. I believe the former images and soundstages far better than the latter.

But as said above they're all wonderful.
 
Well ‘Navyblue’, re. the Kef 11 ohm it might be worth you knowing it has an MDF cabinet.
I’m not sure why Kef used MDF.

Re. the ‘white belly’, it might be a good idea to avoid them.
It’s well know the excess Plastiflex glue around the dust cap causes a peak of approx. 1khz.
Falcon Acoustics has something on their web site about this.

Please don’t let me put you off either model.
People make up their own mind on these matters.
 
Exciting that you are getting to demo so many of these small speakers.

They are indeed wonderful in their own special way, as you, and others have said.

I cannot help with your specific queries unfortunately, but I can offer insight into three of the relevant speakers noted (P3esr XD, Proac Tablette 10 Signature and Spendor 4/5).

The P3esr XD has a good overall balance – lovely mids, surprisingly full bodied lower down, and the highs are detailed and have slight metallic edge to them (in a good way for guitars etc), without sounding at all bright. Build quality is superb. They are just overpriced though IMO, and should be not much more than half their retail price.

Proac Tablette 10 are an interesting one. I had a home demo recently, and what immediately stood out, was their treble. It’s reasonably smooth, but to my ears at least, it stands apart from the midrange and makes itself too known, too often, in the areas of sibilance and digital glare on modern recordings. However, the pair I listened to weren’t particularly broken in, and they did excel at bass speed and detail. I should probably have listened to them longer really, as there was something addictive about them, even if they arent always a comfortable, fatigue free listen. Build quality is average, with non-magnetic grilles and so-so cabinets. The driver looks nice though.

Spendor Classic 4/5 are the most refined and sweet sounding, with zero fatigue; nothing ever distracts and they are the most cohesive sounding of the three. The treble is silky but very detailed, the bass is fast and snappy. And the mids are full of information and hang back a touch, but they image wonderfully. Build quality is wonderful, but they aren’t built like a tank like the P3esr are. Depending on taste though, they could be perceived as the safe, boring option, because they don’t have the slight forwardness in the highs of the others and aren’t as explicit as the Proacs.

Interested to see what you think of the Proacs therefore.
 
I've owned Harbeth P3 and now have the Falcons, in my room the Falcons definitely image better than the Harbeths, possibly because the Harbeths like space behind them, which I couldn't give.
I also owned the Proac Tab 10, again image well, but a bit brighter overall presentation than the Falcon and the Harbeth.
 
On the Facebook LS3/5A group the group admin and person who has probably heard every vesion of them said if he was to only own one pair it would be the Falcon Gold Badge.
 
If they are made to spec, all LS3/5as should sound identical (11 ohm and 15 ohm). Any variation is either due to ageing or a variation from the BBC spec. At least, that's what Derek Hughes from Spendor told me.

My suspicion is that late 11 ohm LS3/5as from the original run may be the best way of hearing what the BBC thought the LS3/5a should sound like. I am sure the recreated BBC designs from Stirling, Graham and Falcon are amazing (they should be at that price) but I would be unconvinced that they are produced to EXACTLY the same tolerances as the original BBC specs.

I'd add the AVI Neutron to the OP's shortlist. And add the observation that I have encountered few speakers so dependent on room reinforcement for bass as the original LS3/5a and Linn Kan. I'm also not sure the monitor audio gold belongs on that list, it's far bigger, more of a rocker's boom-tizz speaker and really designed for bigger rooms and higher SPLs.

I've had the Neutron, 11ohm LS3/5a, and the P3ESR at different times.

The P3 ESR is an amazing and even handed speaker great with all forms of programme material and cannot really be faulted for use in small rooms. It will also go surprisingly loud and low for such a small box. However, it isn't great in the near field (ie. desktop use) and is difficult to impossible to integrate well with a sub.

The LS3/5a is a delight to listen to at low to medium volumes and images superbly, but getting the most out of it's limited low end is very room dependent - like Kans, if it works in your room it's magic, if it doesn't, there's no point in persisting with it. It is also very, very limited in terms of SPLs. Personally, I found it sounded at it's best with solid state Quad power amplifiers rather than with the vintage valve amps, YMMV, of course.

The Neutron does everything the P3 does, but not QUITE so well, but is a billy bargain at the prices they go for. It's also superb as a desktop speaker and integrates with a sub amazingly well. It is also tiny.
 
I would tend to agree re.11 ohm models.
A pair of Harbeth 11 ohm were in my house for a short time and they sounded superb,
along with a pair of 11 ohm Rogers.
The two pairs sounded identical to my ears...
 
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Goat said:
Interested to see what you think of the Proacs therefore.
Click to expand...

Just came back from another hifi store crawl. Got to hear the KEF (LS50 Meta, R3, Reference Meta, LS50WII, LSXII), Golder Ear BRX, Proac (Tablette 10, D2R), Rogers LS3/5A, ATC (SCM7, SCM19)

I heard the Proac Tablette 10 after hearing the KEFs and Golden Ear, the highs of the Tablette 10 does feel boosted, along with the bass. Kinda like the "rock" EQ setting. The treble of Rogers LS3/5A feels even stronger still. Among the tiny British monitors I would rank the perceived treble strength as follows:

Classic 4/5 < P3ESR-XD < SCM7 < Tablette 10 < Rogers LS3/5A

Even the Classic 4/5 does not sound dark or soft to me. If it is your idea of balanced, then the tablette 10 would sound boosted in treble. Personally I can stand all of them, depending on how long and loud I listen to them, and of course electronic pairing.

For me the Classic 4/5" falls into a category of sound that a lot of modern speaker falls into. A great all rounder with no particular weakness, warm but without any obvious colouration, smooth, dynamic, punchy, images well and detailed. Another speaker in my audition list that I personally lump in this category is the Dali Menuet SE. It's a bit cheaper, prettier, but ported. I can't comment on which is better because I heard them in different stores.

The Tablette 10 is veering into a category I call rock speakers. Like the above but with a bit cooler tone and a touch of V shaped curve. I would lump the Focal Aria 906 here as well. And may be the Golden Ear BRX as well, but this has a looser, smoother, warmer and less textured presentation.

There is also the Tablette 10 Signature. When I first listen to the Tablette 10 (after hearing the Menuet SE), it feels like a thinner/cooler/brighter presentation to me (it doesn't feel thin the second time I heard it). Right after that I heard the Tablette 10 Signature. What stood out to me was the tonality is quite different. Smoother, more delicate and romantic, less intense/fatiguing. As for the treble intensity, I didn't pay much attention to it, so it's possible they are about the same intensity, but feels like a gentler speaker to me. I have to hear it again to be sure.

You might also want to look into the ATC SCM7 too. It is like the Tablette 10 but with very linear bass. You may or may not like this because most speakers have a bass hump somewhere. It is 1/3 of the price of the Rogers LS3/5A, but I have to say it is the technically superior speaker, and actually sound like a monitor. Between it and the Tablette 10, I suspect I would pick the SCM7. The ATC tweeter also seemed superior. Notice I use words like "feel" and "seem", I heard them in different stores.

After hearing the LS3/5A for the second time, The flaws became more obvious to me. On the bottom end, it's simply inferior compared to modern speakers. The top end is definitely boosted. The midrange pops but not great on subtleties. The gold badge might be better. The imaging though, it's top notch and superior to all the Proacs, Or KEF's Uni-Q drivers. If I were to buy one, no way I am paying new Rogers price. I would go Falcon Gold badge DIY, which is a more reasonable price IMO.
 
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