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Reevaluating LP12 after Karousel

Congratulations you’ve managed to attach figures to a specification you haven’t measured whilst giving opinion on a turntable you haven’t heard.

Have you considered a career in politics?
 
I don't know how you can say all that's been said is exaggerated when you clearly haven't heard it. I'm certainly not prone to BS. I have met too many of them in my life and they are so transparent I really don't ever wish to join them.

I said in my post I don't generally post on upgrades but I feel this is exceptional and really is worth positive discussion.

You, at least, owning a LP12 should at least try to hear it and not post your negative thoughts, you never know you may end up agreeing its a revelation, or should that be a revolution.
I think you are missing my point. I may well go down the Karousel route, I will make that decision when I listen to some alternative choices.

To clarify, there are people on here who have gone right up the upgrade ladder which includes a £3k keel, £3k plus arm & whatever the DC options & phono stage are. So, you spend best part of £18k on a TT & it is a £750 bearing which is the missing link, the transformation as it were. Wouldn’t you feel a bit, err, cheated?

Maybe Linn could have introduced this new bearing first?
 
I think you are missing my point. I may well go down the Karousel route, I will make that decision when I listen to some alternative choices.

To clarify, there are people on here who have gone right up the upgrade ladder which includes a £3k keel, £3k plus arm & whatever the DC options & phono stage are. So, you spend best part of £18k on a TT & it is a £750 bearing which is the missing link, the transformation as it were. Wouldn’t you feel a bit, err, cheated?

Maybe Linn could have introduced this new bearing first?
Your right, they should of charged 4K for it, we would all feel better!
 
David, having measured the difference fully maglevving a cirkus makes I'd say I have a better idea of the numbers than you.

It can't be quieter than a no point contact bearing, can it? Not when most of the bearing noise comes from the point contact itself.

Why don't you ask Linn, then you can come back and tell me I'm wrong.
 
I think you are missing my point. I may well go down the Karousel route, I will make that decision when I listen to some alternative choices.

To clarify, there are people on here who have gone right up the upgrade ladder which includes a £3k keel, £3k plus arm & whatever the DC options & phono stage are. So, you spend best part of £18k on a TT & it is a £750 bearing which is the missing link, the transformation as it were. Wouldn’t you feel a bit, err, cheated?

Maybe Linn could have introduced this new bearing first?

Yes I see your point, well sort of. I do however feel most people would have still followed the upgrade path to a higher spec deck.

I hope you can arrange a dem of Karousel v Cirkus, I don't think you will have to ask "what should I be listening for" it really is night and day.

It will be difficult to dem LP12 against other top brands, I wish you all the very best in your pursuit, and of course will probably cost a bit more than £750. However your LP12 will sell.
 
Yes I see your point, well sort of. I do however feel most people would have still followed the upgrade path to a higher spec deck.

I hope you can arrange a dem of Karousel v Cirkus, I don't think you will have to ask "what should I be listening for" it really is night and day.

It will be difficult to dem LP12 against other top brands, I wish you all the very best in your pursuit, and of course will probably cost a bit more than £750. However your LP12 will sell.
I have lived with an LP12 for over 20 years so know it’s sound, will probably listen to P8 or maybe P10, if neither does it it for me then I will probably do the Karousel at some stage. In terms of cost there is not a lot in it. The P8 will give me some money back & the P10 will require a similar level of investment as either a Karousel or Kore combined.

It appears the Karousel is the key component, such a shame that some much more expensive ‘solutions’ have been marketed first. It was actually the price of the Keel which dampened my enthusiasm for the LP12 as a concept.
 
I enjoyed the P10 at a musical evening when it first appeared, and its a complete package so no endless upgrading. Enjoy your search.

I have lived with LP12 since 1979. Where does the time go.

Totally agree about the pricing of the Keel and some of the other components, but they are musical investments. It is an individuals choice how far they go up the chain and generally most enjoyable.
 
So what spec of LP12 would we need to equal the latest Rega Planar 10 complete package... which seems to be about £3.9K.

Looking at my second LP12 I'd like to update, currently it's Cirkus, Lingo1 with Later Ekos and Adikt. If I were to throw a Kore, Lingo4 and Karousel at it it would cost 3K less sale of Lingo1 and Cirkus etc £2350 upgrade cost

Or if I were to sell all the bits off I estimate I would raise around £2250, making the cost to "upgrade" to a Rega 10 around £1650. Saving of 700.
Would the LP12 at that level be 700 pounds better than the Rega? or would it need a better cart, perhaps a Krystal.
Or perhaps it would only take a Karousel + one other mod either Lingo4 or Kore to match or exceed the Rega.

All a bit speculative I know, but some one might have done some listening and comparisons.
 
I enjoyed the P10 and Karousel (with vintage Naim amps and Briks) but will stick with pretty much what you have now, albeit pre-Cirkus and the Lingo has the filter removed. My preferences are not mainstream though.

What about getting the ball rolling with a P10 home dem and also booking a Karousel dealer dem whilst they are still available?
 
I've done that and David has replied too. It seems like you were one of his beta testing subjects. He's finalising his shim soon and I'll get one of those before I pull the trigger on a Karousel.
I've just had word from David G that the shims are now available for GS sub owners looking to upgrade to a Karousel. I have also found a dealer who will sell me just the kit for self-installation.
 
Here's how I see it. FYI, owned the same LP12 since 1990, which was owned by someone else before me. Ittok, Lyra, Kore, my own PSU, and cirkus until a couple weeks ago. I am a Linn fan, but I don't bludgeon others about LInn because the music is what matters. I built my own PSU and phono stage because I either didnt have the funds or the faith in what they were doing at the time. My dealer has uttered the words "Well, I see why you don't stop in and buy stuff as often". To be fair, I moved 2 hours away, too.

I haven't seen a reason to switch from the LP12, or a better option at a reasonable spend. My dealer has had tons of different options above and below the LP12 price point, and always says despite its issues, it still makes the music come to life for him more than anything else. (Rega, Mofi, Brinkmann, I forget all the ones he's had in). Mine gets played every day, and my musical taste has expanded non-stop since buying it. It's less the focus, and just the vessel.

The Karousel is so night-and-day better, you will laugh or cry within the first 3 seconds of hearing it. I couldn't imagine my deck getting hugely better, and never would've said it sounded slow, frumpy, or "small" before. And now I can confidently say that's exactly how it sounded before, in comparison. People who say every aspect of the sound gets a lot better are correct, IMO.

I asked my dealer why, despite all of the engineering prowess at Linn, and people complaining the LP12 never sounds good, did it take this long to get to this level of improvement? And wasn't the bearing the focus from day 1?! Like Cirkus was supposed to shut the door and be the bearing be-all-end all. He didn't have a great answer, beyond something about they weren't able to measure and manufacture at this level of precision (which I think is bunk, but whatever). I get why people would think "Oh, NOW you figure out that problem with the bearing?!?"

If you have a Linn, lucky for you none of that matters. It's chicken-feed money to get a jump so big you might pass out hearing it. Will it piss you off that you spent however much up to this point, to get there? I don't know. For me it was an unexpected leap that transformed everything by a margin I never imagined or expected, and makes it even more amazing to listen. For that to be US$1k is a nice gift. (Whoever said they should've charged $4k+, I am shocked they didn't because it's a bigger jump than anything I've ever heard at any price, and $4k would've seemed fair for this level of gain). My dealer told me early last year to not wait even a second to do it, and I waited 14 months. Wish I'd done it sooner for sure.

If you don't have a Linn, or haven't heard one with and without a Karousel and don't intend to buy one, respectfully WTF are you doing here? Keep your kickass turntable and share what great music you've heard lately. (Pharoah Sanders most recently here). I don't really care what gear you have, talk about what music you like and that's all that matters.
 
Well a Karousel would be more than I paid for my whole deck I'd probably be more inclined to try a Cirkus upgrade first, or not bother and just save for a Karousel? I take it I'd need a subchassis swap as well? it's glued one.
 
I asked my dealer why, despite all of the engineering prowess at Linn, and people complaining the LP12 never sounds good, did it take this long to get to this level of improvement? And wasn't the bearing the focus from day 1?! Like Cirkus was supposed to shut the door and be the bearing be-all-end all. He didn't have a great answer, beyond something about they weren't able to measure and manufacture at this level of precision (which I think is bunk, but whatever). I get why people would think "Oh, NOW you figure out that problem with the bearing?!?"
I posit a three possible explanations:

(1) the thrust plate is better and polished to a higher standard
(2) you are replacing a worn bearing (my pre-Cirkus did look scored under a microscope)
(3) the way Karousel clamps onto the subchassis is significantly better.

It's a no-brainer upgrade for any LP12 that doesn't have the Karousel.
 


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