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Racism, sexism etc in sport.

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Tony Lockhart, Jan 22, 2023.

  1. Is this a bad thing?

    Cheers BB
    Finnegan likes this.
  2. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    Have you read Ursula Le Guin's book The Left Hand of Darkness?
  3. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    No, it is not too fanciful, although the markers of gender that you cite- hairstyles etc, have changed markedly throughout history and culture. The preponderance of clean shaven faces and short hair for men was in no small part influenced by modern warfare, ie. the preponderance of lice in the trenches, and the fact that a gas mask would not fit properly over a full beard. The luxurious barnet of Lloyd-George, or impressive facial fungus of George V, gives an indication of pre WW1 historical fashion.

    The publication in 1970 of radical feminist Shulamith Firestone’s The Dialectic Of Sex caused waves throughout second-wave feminism. Firestone argued that reproductive technology had advanced to the degree that gestation was now possible outside the womb, thus freeing women from the onerous (and dangerous) task of childbirth. Firestone’s thesis was so controversial because it eliminated the biological determinist view that women were biologically preordained to gestate the foetus and give birth.

    Until the advent of so called ‘gender critical’ feminism, the consensus tended to view ‘sex’ as biological and ‘gender’ as its emotional, cultural and social interpretation. The opposing viewpoint regards gender as expressing an underlying essence of sex, where gender functions as a passport; a marker of a specific biological locus. In this essentialist view, there are immutable characteristics associated with congenital, biologically determined gender. This ‘essence’ is inaccessible and unknowable to those born without it. Transgender women who claim “always to have been women” are dismissed. Not being born as, and socially conditioned as, a ‘woman,’ i.e. having no inherent access to feminine ‘essentialism’ prohibits any claim to womanhood.

    There is a further strand of (exceptionally challenging) gender theory that views biological sex as a marker to which a human body is adhered to; a fluid category, socially constructed rather than a trans-historical fixture. According to this view, while biology (genes, chromosomes and hormones) is of course responsible for anatomical differences in the human body, the body itself exists as culturally interpreted, and is therefore neither stable or ‘natural.’

    People are free to accept or dismiss this as they wish, but it’s out there. And it’s not going back in the box anytime soon.
  4. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    Don't know. Wasn't thinking of good or bad. For me, certainly unsettling and thought provoking.
  5. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    Thanks. No, but I'll think about it.
  6. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    As it is for all of us who have grown up with rigidly defined, ‘scientific’ and very deep seated assumptions about sex and gender. That’s why this thread has been so contentious, and at times fractious.
  7. My children (son and 2 daughters, between 21 and 24) tell me this is how things are likely to be. They accept it as part of their lives.

    Cheers BB
  8. Davd

    Davd pfm Member

    Putting forward a contrary opinion to your own does not necessitate being labelled a ‘troll’ or ‘bigot’.

    conversations need to be had, uncomfortable as they may be, for the good of everyone.

    it was of interest to learn that if teenagers experiencing body dysmorphia let there bodies develop naturally 80% accepted there bodies in their later teens and were in fact gay not trans, 10% were trans and 10% were straight.

    the treatments offered at the tavistock clinic uk in gender counselling/ transitioning to teenagers appears to have been a right mess in many cases with in excess of 1000 lawsuits pending.

    anyway this appears to be a zero sum discussion on here with little leeway either side of the sports argument, so I am out.
  9. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    Of course. But it needs to be done with respect. Some members seem to forget that they're responding to fishies who are trans themselves and that language can be hurtful.

    We had a post yesterday by another member claiming that to be trans was a form of mental illness FFS. Can you blame trans or non-binary members for being a little defensive in that sort of environment?

    Lots of members have posted that they find the whole subject a bit confusing. Suggest the best approach might be to listen to trans members when they take the time to try and explain.
  10. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    I now think that the potential trans issues in sport are very much a straw man argument, almost a moral panic about something which hasn’t even happened.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with elite athletes who are on a continuous cycle of training & competition; they must be hyper aware of any perceived threat to their success. The ‘threat’ is far more likely to come from drug cheats.

    Anyway can we get back to the usual group of middle age, middle class white blokes debating racism;)
  11. claire.foxx

    claire.foxx Trans lives matter more than your feelings - ΘΔ

    correcting perfectly horrible people sucks all joy from life (& of course trans people don’t owe anyone answers). I’ll bow out too. I am *so* sorry about TERF island. It’s been real, folks.
    droodzilla, paulfromcamden and Durmbo like this.

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