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Racism, sexism etc in sport.

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Tony Lockhart, Jan 22, 2023.

  1. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    Then I was evidently mistaken to be more sympathetic to a report compiled by experts in their field than your opinion.

    It is neither a desire or impulse on my part to erase ‘female.’ I’m simply questioning rigid definitions that are based on biological reductionism, and which assert the physical effects of puberty result in immutable changes in anatomy and physiology that determine what physical tasks can, and cannot, be successfully undertaken.

    There was a time when it was unthinkable for women to occupy certain positions due to their ‘essential’ femininity and physical limitations (although women had historically worked in coal mining up until 1842, when legislation was enacted to restrict or abolish this practice). Prior to WW1, women worked predominantly as domestic servants. The labour shortages caused by the war resulted in women being drafted into engineering, ship building and coal mining.

    If women can take men’s place in the coal mines and shipyards, then they can damn well play football alongside men.
  2. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    You make some fair points but your last paragraph is total nonsense.
    Weekender likes this.
  3. Cheese

    Cheese Bitter lover

    I’m not nostalgic of times when people had to work in coal mines. Especially women, because physically it was harder for them. Of course some women were stronger than some men blah blah.

    Apart from this, I guess the historical context isn’t quite the same is it.
  4. MANDY

    MANDY pfm Member

    The fact that a trans woman is a man means in sport she/he should be in the mens section unless it is a unisex sport.We should just go in sport by the birth gender it's as simple as that, yes not all men are stronger than women but id guess if they are good at some sport they would be in the average or above average male build/strength put that against the average woman in that sport and there will most definitely be an advantage, why else would a man claim to be a woman yet keep his manly appearance and genitals it's obvious. This whole Trans crap is just annoying they should just set up a trans category if they want and trans against trans, but I guess the trans female would have an advantage over a trans male.
    See how this thing is just lunacy. The trouble is they are dictating to us and changing the rules without us having a vote on it.We are supposed to live in a democratic society aren't we?
  5. Davd

    Davd pfm Member

    Dont believe that trans is crap or lunacy- if humans choose that option them why not, as long as it does no harm.

    however when the push to change facts potentially harms other weaker humans then I dont support that ie the sport argument(males vs females)

    it seems natal females are getting pushed further down the hierachial league table of respect, and a lot of agressive arguments coming from males- trans and natal.

    also interesting to note that the females I have encountered on hifi forums are trans. I dont know any natal females that are hifi enthusiasts
  6. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    I think the basic point is that a man-to-woman trans considers herself a woman, to all legal and personal intents and purposes. She used to be a man, now she is a woman. Therefore, she reasonably thinks she should be in the women's athletics or rowing or whatever competitions. One problem seems to be, but I am no expert, that "trans" covers a whole spectrum of modes of transformation, from someone who simply dresses as a woman, to someone who has undergone many years of hormone therapy pre and post puberty and genital surgery. From what (little) I understand, the various sports federations all over the world are trying to establish clear criteria in this field.
  7. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Just dressing like a women is a completely different thing, Grayson Perry for example.
  8. Paul R

    Paul R pfm Member

    The authors are not experts. And their illogic only requires reason to see.

    By advocating the admission of males into hard-won female spaces you are erasing 'female' as having any meaning.

    The existence of male and female is not a matter of 'definitions', rigid or flaccid, it's a matter of fact. And you cannot change one to another. This isn't 'reductionism', it's the natural world as we find it.

    I don't understand your last phrase. Women are clearly quite capable of cutting coal, or running and jumping, or riding a bike, or swimming lengths of a pool.
    Davd likes this.
  9. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    Is it? I seem to remember that Wiki defines "trans" as an umbrella term covering that, too. Besides, if, as I understand it, one can choose one's own gender irrespective of sex at birth, isn't what one does to implement this transformation one's own business? I'm asking because I am not clear about what the established principles are. I expect there are many different opinions.
  10. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    Ok, a report with eight pages of referenced bibliography, a thirty page appendix of academic literature, produced by a body that includes a professor of sports medicine and a professor of law and medicine- but they’re not expert in their field.

    There’s clearly no consensus to be achieved here, or any agreement to disagree, so let’s just stop wasting each other’s time.
  11. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Grayson Perry does not identify as a women from what I understand.

    In the ‘old days’ a transvestite was, usually, a man who dressed in woman's clothes & a transsexual was a different thing. It’s a pretty big umbrella apparently.
  12. Durmbo

    Durmbo sister

    That damn trans plague is ruining society. God this sort of bad faith, bogoted argument makes me tired. Go get yourself educated!

    Yawn. Being trans is no more a choice than being gay or red headed. You need to get educated, too.

    How do you know "the females I've encountered on hifi forums are trans"? Why do you find it interesting?
    vince rocker and paulfromcamden like this.
  13. Durmbo

    Durmbo sister

    You as well.

    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
  14. Davd

    Davd pfm Member

    [Q How do you know "the females I've encountered on hifi forums are trans"? Why do you find it interesting?[/QUOTE]

    They have let it be known they are trans.

    I find it interesting because , even though they identify as female, they have a strong interest in a hobby that natal females have practically zero interest in- have you visited a hi fi show recently? not that there is anything wrong with having that interest just interesting.

    also, going back to sports, what do you think would happen if the top male teams /individuals transitioned to female and then fought the top natal female teams/individuals?

    add to that if those sports were dangerous eg rugby/ american football/ boxing/ MMA? I suspect a much increased incidence of serious life changing injury/death to the natal females.
  15. Durmbo

    Durmbo sister

    How do you know "the females I've encountered on hifi forums are trans"? Why do you find it interesting?
    How do you know there aren't other women on these forums who haven't declared their gender?

    I've had an interest in hi-fi since my late teens. I was a music freak who found that an acquaintances largely Rotel system made the music more enjoyable than a 70s-80s music centre did. I post on pfm - the only hi-fi etc. forum I'm a member of - because I like the conversation.

    I've never had an interest in hi-fi shows. I went to a couple of distributors demos in a shop many years ago; found them utterly dull & with an entirely male audience I felt nothing in common with.

    A friends cis daughter is absolutely an audiophile, if not a box swapping or collecting type. She doesn't post on forums AFAIK.
    Do you REALLY think either of these things would EVER happen?? Why the fk cis men (meaning males assigned such at birth who are comfortable with being male) would transition to dominate womens sports is absolutely beyond me.

    This is exactly a position that anti-trans bigots take. What if, what if, what if, ad nauseam & to hell with the science & meaningful participation & general acceptance of trans people in society. It reminds me of the shrill homophobia of last century; also the experience of black people in the formerly segregated states of the US. In fact, I don't think there's a difference: it's all naked, thoughtless prejudice towards relatively powerless groups.

    Anyway, here's a well researched, nuanced video that you & other skeptics may learn from.

  16. Davd

    Davd pfm Member

    The dominance of males in hifi as a hobby is irrefutable.

    my opinion as I have stated in multiple posts is males are stronger and more powerful than equivalent females, therefore even when transitioned , they have an unfair and in some sports, dangerous advantage compared to natal females. Thats my opinion.

    trans as a choice has my full support.
    Ps why are you being aggressive? / swearing?
  17. Durmbo

    Durmbo sister

    I'd agree with that.

    I'm not challenging your right to an opinion. Have at it. I'm challenging the opinion itself. Have you watched the video?

    What exactly do you mean by this? Try listening to yourself saying this: "human as a choice has my full support". OTOH, *transitioning* is absolutely a choice.

    You mean the caps I used for emphasis? It was a quick & easy means, not meant to be aggressive. Swearing: again to emphasize how ludicrous I find your particular "what if?" scenario.

    It feels like you're trolling me.
  18. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    He is. Don't waste your energy on this bigot. Take care of yourself.
    Durmbo and paulfromcamden like this.
  19. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    This whole debate, like the other thread on gender, leads me to think: If we take it to its natural conclusion, the whole concept of sex/gender must disintegrate. Each of us is a human being. OK. But anything to do with sex and gender, sexual tastes, reproduction, "mating", becomes fluid and undefinable. So, I could be born male, acquire breasts and long hair and long eyelashes, keep my penis and testicles, and decide with whom, of whatever sexual combination, I wish to have sexual intercourse. So we will no longer have men and women, but individuals each of whom follows their own inclinations regarding the physical, psychological and social aspects of sexuality/gender. Male and Female will cease to exist. Or is this too Startrekkish?
  20. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    Is that not a bigoted attitude? To brand as "bigot" someone who is trying to discuss and debate in a civilised and friendly manner?
    Davd likes this.

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