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Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 digital DAC

DimitryZ said:
I had that as well, but ascribed it to Tidal inconsistent streaming issues. However, my other MQA DACs don't do that, so it must be related to the little box. Nonetheless, the sound quality is very good, though the quality control is not, apparently.
Click to expand...

With the USBridge and S2D (ignoring all the power supplies) I have two 'little boxes' to contend with. The S2D seems to be the more reliable of them. USBridge strikes me as not being a quite finished product although this could be due to the Volumio software. I have to use a 3rd party Tablet app (mconnect) to use Tidal as Volumio won't let me. Some other forum users seem to have found out how to do it but the mechanism is hidden in my case. I digress.

I'm glad it's not just me finding the S2D not as perfect as the reviews might suggest. A Software update really is needed.

Meanwhile, the NAD-C658 looks like it will finally fit the bill when it becomes available. Let's hope it will be finished before it goes on sale!

Thanks for your replies.
 
andykchapman said:
Thanks for your additional information pages on the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 digital DAC @left channel. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12H0_F_gD2GY37XKHwrM3tQZRYcm84yzIrSy1MbmkFY8/edit).

For a while I've been running a Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 digital DAC driven by a Volumio based Allo USBridge for streaming from my Tidal HiFi (inc MQA) account.
Using quiet power supplies, the sound is as good as I could want. No complaints except...
MQA encoded tracks seem to take a moment to get sorted before they play properly. This results in the first few fractions of a second of the track being missed. This also seems to happen with a playlist including both MQA and 44.1 CD quality tracks.
Has anyone else spotted this? It appears to be another software issue.
Click to expand...

I have an update to this MQA untidy start problem.
1. Using a Windows 10 Laptop with the S2 Digital, I alternated between some CD quality and MQA encoded files downloaded from this site: http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html. These I played from a NAS drive using Foobar2000. I had no untidy MQA start problems at all.

2. Using the Laptop instead of USBridge with the S2 Digital, I chose some MQA and non-MQA tracks using the Windows Tidal app. This time, I had similar untidy MQA start problems as with the USBridge as above. Some MQA tracks were worse than others.

I'm inclined to agree with @DimitryZ that it is an issue with the way Tidal starts its MQA streams rather than a problem with the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital DAC. However, as it seems that not all DACs do this, it may be an interaction problem - not a problem I'm likely to get resolved easily!

@DimitryZ Were your other MQA DACs using asynchronous USB or SPDIF as the interface please?
 
andykchapman said:
I have an update to this MQA untidy start problem.
1. Using a Windows 10 Laptop with the S2 Digital, I alternated between some CD quality and MQA encoded files downloaded from this site: http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html. These I played from a NAS drive using Foobar2000. I had no untidy MQA start problems at all.

2. Using the Laptop instead of USBridge with the S2 Digital, I chose some MQA and non-MQA tracks using the Windows Tidal app. This time, I had similar untidy MQA start problems as with the USBridge as above. Some MQA tracks were worse than others.

I'm inclined to agree with @DimitryZ that it is an issue with the way Tidal starts its MQA streams rather than a problem with the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital DAC. However, as it seems that not all DACs do this, it may be an interaction problem - not a problem I'm likely to get resolved easily!

@DimitryZ Were your other MQA DACs using asynchronous USB or SPDIF as the interface please?
Click to expand...
My only other MQA DAC is OPPO 205 (recently software updated to MQA, MQA on USB only) and it doesn't seem to have the issues that S2D did. However, S2D is in another system and I have not tried it recently with Tidal to see if there has been an improvement. I am also running my digital USB sources through Schiit decrapiphier (I wish they weren't so juvenile with product name selections), so that may have some effect as well.
 
DimitryZ said:
My only other MQA DAC is OPPO 205 (recently software updated to MQA, MQA on USB only) and it doesn't seem to have the issues that S2D did. However, S2D is in another system and I have not tried it recently with Tidal to see if there has been an improvement. I am also running my digital USB sources through Schiit decrapiphier (I wish they weren't so juvenile with product name selections), so that may have some effect as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your quick response @DimitryZ .
Async USB has some data flow management built in whereas SPDIF is a steady flow. I'd wondered if this might be the issue. I'd be interested to know if you still have the problem with your S2D in its new system. What are you using as a USB source please?
 
I have multiple USB sources - Wintel PC, IPad, an Android Tablet and Amazon Fire, each dedicated to that ecosystem's audio streaming. They go through a manual USB switcher, Shiit box and to a powered hub, that carries 5 DACs on the downstream. Surely a weird setup, but it works. MQA comes from the Win tablet and sometimes through IPad via Nugs.net concert app, though the latter looses the MQA light, while maintaining the high sample rate.
 
DimitryZ said:
MQA comes from the Win tablet and sometimes through IPad via Nugs.net concert app, though the latter looses the MQA light, while maintaining the high sample rate.
Click to expand...
I've only managed to get MQA to decode from Tidal with a bit perfect USB source. I have only been able to get a bit perfect USB source from my Windows 10 Laptop (with Tidal app) or via my USBridge with a remote tablet app (mconnect). Android devices seem unable to let the MQA through to a USB DAC. I've also found that volume has to be set to 100% to avoid MQA being corrupted from bit perfect.
 
@andykchapman the S2D only decodes MQA via USB, and does not decode MQA via S/PDIF. Although other DACs support both, this is at least an intentional design choice. In contrast, other DAC developers have also encountered and fixed problems with Tidal MQA streams, as well as the bit rate switch popping sounds caused by the ESS chip and other problems, but Pro-Ject apparently did not plan the necessary testing and bug fixing cycles to do the same in a timely fashion. John does seem to have fixed most of these issues however — one of his firmware updates greatly improved Tidal MQA reception, and abolished all or most of the popping sounds — and I have high hopes for his promised final bug fix and upgrade releases.
 
left channel said:
@andykchapman the S2D only decodes MQA via USB, and does not decode MQA via S/PDIF. Although other DACs support both, this is at least an intentional design choice. In contrast, other DAC developers have also encountered and fixed problems with Tidal MQA streams, as well as the bit rate switch popping sounds caused by the ESS chip and other problems, but Pro-Ject apparently did not plan the necessary testing and bug fixing cycles to do the same in a timely fashion. John does seem to have fixed most of these issues however — one of his firmware updates greatly improved Tidal MQA reception, and abolished all or most of the popping sounds — and I have high hopes for his promised final bug fix and upgrade releases.
Click to expand...

Thanks @left channel. I'd meant to emphasise the 'bit perfect' nature of the USB source (USBridge). In contrast, I've not managed to get an Android tablet to produce a bit perfect USB output. I was aware that the S2D was not intended to do MQA via SPDIF inputs. Apologies for any confusion.

My S2D is using Pro-Ject's latest software version 2.12. I've heard about a possible new software version but have no details. Do you know if it is available yet? (My apologies for repeating myself with this question!). Is 'John's Firmware update' the 'new software version' I'm referring to?

I'm glad to hear that others have fixed this problem so a cure is likely at some point. Compared to the filter not resetting problem with a non-MQA following a MQA track, I would rate this as a much more irritating fault as it cannot be avoided.
 
Thanks @left channel. I do recall @JohnW's comment now; I'd not realised how long ago it was.
I don't know if @JohnW is still following this forum but it would be good to have an update.
I am prepared to pay for software fixes to this otherwise exceptional DAC.
 
I got my unit fixed by a local distributor.

Now I just hope they release a new driver with a newer XMOS driver. Current 4.38 driver has a bug with the new JPLAY software/driver. I'm aware that XMOS Driver 4.45 or 4.47 works perfectly.
 
left channel said:
What is the JPLAY bug?
Click to expand...
The new version of JPLAY doesn't work with DSD DoP and also doesn't work with UltraStream (one of JPLAY's playback engine)

Other XMOS DACs shows the same behavior using XMOS driver 4.36 and 4.38. Using a driver 4.45 or 4.47 solves the problem.

I contacted them by facebook and e-mail asking when we should expect a new driver with updated XMOS driver. Let's see how it goes.
 
andykchapman said:
With the USBridge and S2D (ignoring all the power supplies) I have two 'little boxes' to contend with. The S2D seems to be the more reliable of them. USBridge strikes me as not being a quite finished product although this could be due to the Volumio software. I have to use a 3rd party Tablet app (mconnect) to use Tidal as Volumio won't let me. Some other forum users seem to have found out how to do it but the mechanism is hidden in my case. I digress.

I'm glad it's not just me finding the S2D not as perfect as the reviews might suggest. A Software update really is needed.

Meanwhile, the NAD-C658 looks like it will finally fit the bill when it becomes available. Let's hope it will be finished before it goes on sale!

Thanks for your replies.
Click to expand...

Hi andy

The USBridge hardware is great but the problem is it runs a version 3.x of the Linux kernel. So Volumio won't really spend any development time with their USBridge image. Allo have been pushing the Sparky board CPU maker to bring the support Linux kernel up to date. DietPi is a little better, with Allo helping with manual patches but it's not without issues too.

With DietPi, once you have everything working nicely and reliably (it is possible) then I recommend don't update DietPi unless you are prepared for some potential troubleshooting and headaches. The DietPi updates are what caused me and many others issues. You would think I would follow me own advice and stop updating it but I keep making the mistake, just to have the 'latest' update. A classic example of 'if it ain't broke... don't update' :)

andykchapman said:
So do I. The S2D is great sounding but its software flaws keep emerging.
Click to expand...

If the Xmos bug is this one, it's not really any fault of the S2D. It's a known Xmos issue affecting many DACs (follow the link to the Xcore thread at the link below):

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/dac-issues-with-xmos-usb-chipset-and-roon-on-linux/52911/15

Apart from this and the one remaining known MQA bug (not the fault of the S2D again, but an MQA coding bug) I haven't had any issues with my SD2.

This last remaining known MQA bug is fully solved by having the software do the first 'unfold'. The bug only shows up if the SD2 is in full MQA decoder mode.

Apart from that, no other known issues with the S2D firmware that I've seen on this forum or others.
 
sberry20118 said:
The USBridge hardware is great but the problem is it runs a version 3.x of the Linux kernel.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply @sberry20118 . The Sparky processor used in the USBridge has recently had a Volumio software upgrade to version 2.513. The changelog (https://volumio.org/forum/changelog-t1575.html) shows that there have been a number of 'bumps' to the Linux Kernel and in v2.513, the kernel is 4.14.71. V2.513 has made the USBridge work better in some respects: for me it has made wi-fi connectivity function satisfactorily.

sberry20118 said:
If the Xmos bug is this one, it's not really any fault of the S2D. It's a known Xmos issue affecting many DACs.
Click to expand...

I can't comment on this and I'm not sure what problem it is referring to.

MQA streams stutter on starting with the S2D. I've tried exactly the same with a Meridian Explorer2 which does not have the problem.
 
@andykchapman have you tried to swap in DietPi to see if it runs USBridge better than Volumio? If you're only running Squeezelite, you're bypassing most of the audio features of Volumio anyway. Or @sberry20118 is that just a similar set of annoyances with a different name? Assuming we can control ourselves and not experiment with every update, which is not easy! :)
 
left channel said:
Have you tried to swap in DietPi to see if it runs USBridge better than Volumio? If you're only running Squeezelite, you're bypassing most of the audio features of Volumio anyway.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply @left channel . I've not tried DietPi. I'm also not using Squeezelite, so far as I know.

I have got some sense out of Volumio but had to subscribe to MyVolumio to get access to Tidal. I didn't expect this (nor the additional cost).

From the above, I'm now confused as to which problem we are discussing here. Anyway, I've taken up the MQA stuttering playback start with the UK distributors. They have said that Pro-Ject's tech department are aware of it. You never know what might happen.

I haven't mentioned the 'Optimal Transient' filter switching problem yet; it's probably better to only deal with one issue at a time.
 
@andykchapman no, I'm confused about which problem we're talking about. :) You're still on track. Moving on...

I'd stick with myVolumio then. How much does it cost? I tried googling for that information with no success.
 
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