matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Although of course after saying this she was convicted of tax evasion, sent to prison and forced to pay all the taxes anyway and then lived out the rest of her life in isolation with few remaining friends.
Post-Trump: III (decline, further tantrums, legal proceedings, book deals etc)
- Thread starter Yank
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Although of course after saying this she was convicted of tax evasion, sent to prison and forced to pay all the taxes anyway and then lived out the rest of her life in isolation with few remaining friends.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Excellent sounds like a template the DOJ could follow.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I don't believe the crazies in America are particularly representative, but by Christ when they flip they flip.
https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1421886805427867654
https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1421886805427867654
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zarniwoop
hoopy frood
What a piece of work.
sean99
pfm Member
How are these people not held liable when members of their congregation end up intubated or dead ? That would shut these frauds down - having to pay the medical expenses of the folks they hospitalize. The health insurance companies should pursue them in court.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
Agreed 100%! There is no difference between this and falsely yelling fire in a crowded room. Both can result in injury and death.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I think first amendment stuff gets even more complicated when it involves religious speech which has some extra protection?
But as ever in the US the ultimate remedy would involve suing with the attendant costs. Also if you are going to sue for this sort of thing, then probably better to sue Tucker Carlson and Fox as they have more money than most churches.
sean99
pfm Member
Agreed. The health insurers have deep pockets and lots of lawyers - they should go after these guys. But what is more likely to happen, given that this is the US we're talking about, and the little guy is always the one thrown under the bus, is that health insurers will start refusing to pay for the hospitalization of the unvaccinated and they will end up bankrupt. But they'll still be attending nutjob churches, watching fox news and blaming it all on libtards for their situation.
tones
Tones deaf
Interesting article from The New Yorker on the money behind The Big Lie (and The Big Liar):
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...c=AUTO_OTHER&utm_content=B&utm_term=TNY_Daily
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...c=AUTO_OTHER&utm_content=B&utm_term=TNY_Daily
gustav_errata
pfm Member
I naively believed that churches lose their tax-exempt status if they make political statements like that. I guess not?
tones
Tones deaf
I think not. This gentleman, for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur
says that you cannot be a Christian and vote Democrat. I believe that he features frequently on Faux News.
Tony L
Administrator
The thing that totally baffles me as an atheist who has actually read the bible is how these preachers can get away with spinning what is the fundamentally socialist teachings of Jesus into Ayn Rand-style hard-right capitalism, racism and vilification of the poorest in society. I have no idea how one can get from the words of the new testament to this sort of alt-right hate speech. The American evangelical movement has to be fundamentally heretical based on my reading of the teachings of Jesus. It just does not align in any way. I read it as very firmly suggesting wealth is evil and if one should find oneself in that situation the only option is to distribute that money or assets to those in need. Basic socialism! I’ve long felt the only ‘real’ Christians are monks etc who reject capitalism and possessions entirely and live a communal self-sufficient lifestyle giving back to society more than they take. My godfather was such a person.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Jesus was also keen on people paying their taxes:
And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and show deference to no one; for you do not regard people with partiality, but teach the way of God in accordance with truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?
Should we pay them, or should we not?” But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why are you putting me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me see it.” And they brought one. Then he said to them, “Whose head is this, and whose title?” They answered, “The emperor’s.” Jesus said to them, “Give to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were utterly amazed at him.
And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and show deference to no one; for you do not regard people with partiality, but teach the way of God in accordance with truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?
Should we pay them, or should we not?” But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why are you putting me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me see it.” And they brought one. Then he said to them, “Whose head is this, and whose title?” They answered, “The emperor’s.” Jesus said to them, “Give to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were utterly amazed at him.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
"There came another Pharisee, one learned in all matters of tax, who said "Caesar hath caused loopholes to be inserted in his tax code, to enable alms to the poor and deserving. Only the vain and arrogant would consider going against Caesar's will. Verily I say to thee, thy duty is to seek qualified advice and pay no more than Caesar explicitly demands". Thus spake the tax consultant, and the taxpayer pondered these sayings and saw that they were good, and that tax avoidance was indeed God's way."
tones
Tones deaf
I would disagree that the New Testament is anti-wealth, Tony, it rather teaches that wealth and its acquisition should not be your be-all and end-all, and if it is, you have problems. One of the most misquoted verses in the New Testament is 1 Timothy 6:10:
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Note, not money is the root of all evil (the common misquote) but the love of money. As a practical example, Paul's first convert in Europe was Lydia in Acts 16 - as a seller of purple cloth (purple, obtained only from certain types of sea shell, was incredibly expensive), she would have been a very wealthy woman. But she was "a worshipper of God", i.e. attracted to Judaism and its ideals, so her wealth and the acquisition wasn't the dominant value in her life. Jesus's challenge to the rich young ruler in Luke 18, and the subsequent statement that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle [the small gate set into a larger city gate] than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God" was a challenge to see where his values really lay.
So, what the New Testament is saying is not that wealth is bad, but that faith in Jesus is paramount, and anything that gets in the way of that fails the test of Christianity. Jesus uses extreme hyperbole in Mark 9 to illustrate this:
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
In the very particular case of the USA, it appears to me to be a confusion of both conservative Christianity and the US's Old Testament view of itself, as a successor to ancient Israel, a nation uniquely founded by God as an example to the rest of the world, and punished for its national sins when it gets it wrong. (The Mormons believe that the Constitution is divinely inspired, even though none of the Founding Fathers were religious men). Then add on to that an extreme extension of what has been called the "Protestant work ethic", a continuation of the Calvinist belief in hard work and frugality. From this comes the very unbiblical view that being rich is actually a sign of virtue, and that being poor a sign of the lack of it. Charity and pity has no place in this world view, just judgmentalism.
Nick_G
pfm Member
Or just mentalism.