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Post-Trump: Biden President Elect II (Trump tantrums, riots etc)

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Sue Pertwee-Tyr, Jan 6, 2021.

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  1. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    I'm not sure there was such a thing as an educated middle class at the time of the Peasants Revolt. No doubt there was a certain amount of organisation involved, but there's no evidence that it was a coordinated uprising; there were different elements, some of which were more radical than others.
  2. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yes, I wasn’t trying to say the Peasants Revolt was led and organised by an educated middle class, as you say, there was no such thing really, just that it wasn’t led and organised by peasants of the title! The artisan class (Wat Tyler?) rather than labouring peasants seem to have been prominent while wandering preachers like John Ball, who presumably was educated, were instrumental in spreading the word
  3. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    College educated middle class voted for Biden.

    Trumps base is built on non college educated white people, mostly working class.
  4. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    Main lesson gleaned seems to be "Mobs are strong! Must make sure mobs like me!"
  5. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Very true, but the far-right’s Pied Pipers; Farage, Trump, Johnson, Gove, Rees Mogg, Hartley Brewer, Hopkins, Griffin, Coulter etc are almost always born of considerable wealth and privilege. As in fairness are the left’s, Labour being almost as riddled with wealthy public school PPE graduates as the Tories. Yaxley Lennon is a rare exception being exactly the violent racist working class thug he appears.
  6. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yes, but the real point is that Yaxley Lennon is very well funded by wealthy elites and organisations, just as Hitler was and just as, seems likely, groups like the Proud Boys are. The foot soldiers will get the limelight, applause if successful and blame if not, but they are not the main drivers of insurrection and cannot act alone
    Tony L likes this.
  7. Ciunas Audio

    Ciunas Audio Trade: Ciunas Audio

    It's complicated but isn't one aspect of the moneyed support of the right in the US, the fact that the right's believe in self-correcting free market economics? This plainly suits rampant capitalism & gives the moneyed class free reign to do almost anything, unchecked, indeed with the blessing of the right. It harks back to the religious underpinnings of the first settlers (invaders) of the US & their belief that wealth is the result of godliness & a reward for doing the right thing whereas poverty is a sign of ungodliness & God's displeasure - ironically as far from the Christian ideal as you can get & one of the fundamental issues with the US.
  8. tones

    tones Tones deaf

    Not quite true - the "prosperity gospel" originated in the mid-20th century, although hints can be seen back in the 19th. The original religious settlers came to the New World to escape persecution and to practise freely their particular religious beliefs. Many of them saw this as the founding of the New Jerusalem. The Founding Fathers, none of them particularly religious (many at best deists), were careful to preserve a great degree of religious freedom, including the lack of an established church, like the Anglican Church in England. Ironically, an established church did arise - America itself. The belief in exceptionalism, going back to the 19th century's Manifest Destiny, and the belief that, with hard work, anything was possible for anyone in the USA, and, if you weren't successful it was because you didn't try sufficiently hard. This fused with some religious beliefs in the mid-2oth century to produce today's prosperity gospel.
    sean99 likes this.
  9. Ciunas Audio

    Ciunas Audio Trade: Ciunas Audio

    Yes, tones, thanks, you corrected this before & indeed it seems you are correct. I guess I'm being simplistic in trying to grapple with the illogical anti-christian stance taken by many of the right & the link to free-market capitalism that the money likes? Indeed the prosperity 'gospel' seems to be the root of what I posted - god looking favourably on the rich, etc but many aspects of this 'gospel' seems to have infiltrated the religious right
  10. tones

    tones Tones deaf

    You, in turn, are right in that the "Christianity" espoused by so many in the USA is the total antithesis of what Jesus actually said and taught. Before Pilate, he said, "My kingdom is not of this world" (the Sanhedrin, wanting the Romans to carry the can for any execution, switched the charges from blasphemy (about which the Romans cared not at all) to sedition (about which they cared very much)). However, US Christianity has fused with the idea of the USA as a new version of the Old Testament Israel, a nation created and blessed by God, rewarded when it did the right thing, punished when it didn't - remember when the likes of Jerry Falwell said that 9/11 was punishment for the US's national sins. The result is Christian Nationalism, which was nakedly on display on 6 January - all those crosses and even a JESUS SAVES sign. People are waking up to just how dangerous this ideology can be, and I see that a number of books on the subject have appeared:

    The problem is that the Christian Right has sold its soul to the worst Christian since Genghis Khan, and the road back (and I hope there is one) is going to be very painful. We know that, when fantasy and reality collide, fantasy invariably comes off second-best - however, the amount of damage that happens before that comes to pass can be frightful.
    -alan- and wacko like this.
  11. Ciunas Audio

    Ciunas Audio Trade: Ciunas Audio

    Agree, tones & rampant capitalism loves the free market ethos of the right (which I believe is tied in with their religious beliefs also) & hence pours money into it.
    What happened on Jan 6th drew too much attention to this largely hidden underbelly & one of the outcomes was that money started to be withdrawn from support of these factions but I bet those who see Trump as good for their business/money are still secretly financially supporting this movement & I even bet they wouldn't have minded a coup (in fact may have actively worked towards it - look at the funding for Stop the Steal rally on Jan 6th)

    We agree on the situation but I'm unsure how the US has become such a religious cesspit -perhaps it's a confluence of the heart of capitalism seeing religion as a way to achieve the freedom to do what they want & working towards that goal?
  12. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    The USA's uniqueness is that it was targeted and settled by treasure hunters, just when mercantilist capitalists were ready, ideologically and politically, for such a project. The prototypical US founding wasn't Plymouth, it was Jamestown. The exceptional thing about America was simply the huge amounts of land available, for free to those in the right political position. The ultimate example is William Penn, who got 45,000 square miles, still the most land any non-sovereign has ever owned, essentially for free (the king who gave it to him had doubtful title, but that was managed). America was the place where you could get 'undeveloped' land free or super cheap. With hard work, luck, initiative, just about anyone might get rich. Or they might not, but failure typically meant an early and obscure death, and so was virtually invisible. Vast material advancement was and is the American Dream.

    This is the first of two great themes in the American narrative: the unimaginable quantities of land, and the saga of who got it, and how well did they do with it. Those who did well, or even OK, had a tremendous feeling of individual accomplishment, and thus was born the American conviction that it's the individual, not the community, that counts. Such individualists had incredible resentment then toward an aristocratic class led by an overseas monarch who decided, after about 150 years, that it was time these unruly Americans submitted to rule by their betters. The idea here became 'No one has any betters!' It's a powerful, radical idea that was advanced with important reservations by the American upper-class revolutionaries, who mainly meant "You Englishmen are not MY betters!" The implicit irony of their concurrent conviction that they themselves were particularly better, and that certain others could indeed be oppressed, was, by and large, sharply denied.

    The American narrative then is first the story of individualism born of the struggle of individuals to gain and profit from ownership of manifestly vast, inexhaustible resources. This individualism always conflicts with the idea of the public, communal good. And it is the story of the consequential rise of an ideology of individual rights and equality, which is the second great theme of the American narrative. America became defined as 'the land of the free.' This in turn consequently creates continuous revolutionary struggles over the extension of such rights to the oppressed. The two narratives, in short, are 'the individual versus the community,' and 'the already free versus those still oppressed and demanding freedom.' And because the main power of the oppressed is the solidarity of the community, they are communitarian, not individualistic (except when corrupted, which happens frequently enough of course.)

    The two great currents are thus united in a yin/yang relationship. The Yin are the individualists, seeking personal material advancement, selfish and opposed to any idea of duty to the community, to any infringement on their individual wealth and power. The Yang are communitarians, seeking group well-being and freedom from exploitation by the selfish individualists, and feeling that individuals have a strong duty to share. It is the individualists, in their zeal to be free of the burdens of duty, who create a doctrine of preeminent individual rights. This doctrine becomes an inspiration and a weapon for those communities the individualists find it profitable to oppress. It need hardly be added that the individualists, deny it as they may, are of course dependent on a community that cooperates economically and socially, and protects their rights and property. The individualists cannot exist without community, and the most extreme libertarian fantasies assume it despite themselves. The Yin and Yang are thus united in their circle, each defining the other, and neither even existing except in relation to the other.

    Another big dynamic of America was the frontier, which was always extracting from the settled lands high-Yin people who disliked community, and instead sought their fortunes where there was no community in existence. To this day the more sparsely-settled American west is dominated by the ideology of 'rugged individualism.'

    While my personal inclinations are more Yang, I appreciate the drive of the Yins, and see it as a great engine of accomplishment and advancement in all spheres. Fortunate is the society that gives scope and structure in which both tendencies can flourish in harmony.
  13. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    Super post Don. As with so many things in this life a negotiated balance must be found, in this case between individualism and communitarianism. At this point in US history it seems to me that we have veered too far into individualism, thanks to a very successful multi-decade campaign to demonize communitarianism as a slippery slope that ends in gulags and mass executions.
    Hook, TheDecameron and DonQuixote99 like this.
  14. Hook

    Hook Blackbeard's former bo'sun.

    Agree with Sean, both in his praise and interpretation of Don’s post.

    I can not recall a time when I was more suspicious of those who put individualism on a pedestal. I suppose it has a lot to do with the previous POTUS who, at the 2016 GOP convention, proclaimed “only I alone” can fix the US.

    The debate continues over whether T***p is a true fascist, or just an egomaniacal demagogue who believes “the pursuit of individual self-interest is paramount to all human existence”.
  15. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Trump Takes On The World documentary on BBC 2 now is very good so far, it’s dissecting Trump’s incompetence and arrogance on the world stage and how leaders/officials of other nations reacted to his ignorance and bizarreness.
  16. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    What is a true fascist? I think they are all different, and all making it up as they go. Fascist ideology is all illusion. What's real is the psychology: the sadism, the lack of empathy, the racism, all the toxic shit.
  17. Enfield boy

    Enfield boy pfm Member

    The BBC would be truly admirable if they'd grow the cojones to make a similar piece about Britain Trump and those that control him and benefit.
    Covkxw, kendo, Nick_G and 2 others like this.
  18. Hook

    Hook Blackbeard's former bo'sun.

    In his book “The Anatomy of Fascism”, Robert Paxton listed common traits he saw among fascist leaders:

    - A sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of traditional solutions.

    T***p has totally remade the GOP in his own image. It is now a populism, not conservatism, that drives their agenda.

    - The superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason.

    His total disregard for the truth, and the trust he places in his own gut instinct, captures this one well.

    - The belief of one group that it is the victim, justifying any action.

    Many in Trump’s base feel threatened by immigrants, so Trump bans Muslims and builds a border wall.

    - The need for authority by natural leaders (always male) culminating in a national chief who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s destiny.

    This seems like quite a good description of T***p’s boastful claims.

    - The beauty of violence and the efficacy of will when they are devoted to the group’s success.

    Until the police actions during the BLM protests, an argument could be made that T***p did not check this box. But January 6 pretty much sealed the deal.
    Enfield boy and DonQuixote99 like this.
  19. matthewr

    matthewr spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld

  20. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    All true. I think it's the phrase 'true fascist' that threw me, as if there's a more or less tangible philosophy behind all that, comparable to 'true marxist' or even to 'true christian.' But no, that's all more akin to a list of disgnostic criteria out of a DSM IV or whatever.
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