Peter Grimes: whose your favourite Grimes and why?

[Del monaco]

Just listening to Jon Vicker’s visceral portrait of Peter Grimes. What a committed and all consuming performance this is. The DVD is even more effective. His physical acting was always emotionally engaging. According to rumour, Britten detested his performance and yet for me it gets closest to the character and motives of this tragic figure than any other, even Pears. There are many other performances. Langridge is another must listen.
What are your thoughts on the recordings of this masterpiece.
Del

 

[Barrymagrec]

I have Anthony Rolfe Johnson / Haitink and the original Peter Pears / Britten recordings. I much prefer the Pears / Britten despite it`s age, it seems to have the right presence somehow.

I wouldn`t mind listening to some other recordings but so many discs, so little time....

 

[mandryka]

I don't know why Britten didn't approve of Vickers' Grimes, it may have been partly because of Vickers's anti gay attitude. Neither do I know why Colin Davis made so many small changes to the libretto.

The Vickers is very visceral, as Del Monaco says. Pears more intellectual. One man's meat is another man's poison. In the final act maybe Vickers doesn't go mad very convincingly. I vaguely remember Langridge is good in the final act. I haven't heard Rolfe Johnson.

There's an early version of the opera with a particularly violent hut scene, if I remember right Pears goes chasing the kid round the hut with a stick until he cowers in a corner. Britten toned it down at the request of Saddlers Wells. The BBC have a video.

 

[Del monaco]

I don't know why Britten didn't approve of Vickers' Grimes, it may have been partly because of Vickers's anti gay attitude. Neither do I know why Colin Davis made so many small changes to the libretto.

The Vickers is very visceral, as Del Monaco says. Pears more intellectual. One man's meat is another man's poison. In the final act maybe Vickers doesn't go mad very convincingly. I vaguely remember Langridge is good in the final act. I haven't heard Rolfe Johnson.

There's an early version of the opera with a particularly violent hut scene, if I remember right Pears goes chasing the kid round the hut with a stick until he cowers in a corner. Britten toned it down at the request of Saddlers Wells. The BBC have a video.

Vickers was a vehement Christian. Perhaps you are right about Britten’s stance.

 

[alanbeeb]

Has Mark Padmore recorded Grimes yet? I have Langridge on an ENO DVD conducted by Atherton, must give it a watch sometime.

 

[Del monaco]

I have the Langridge on Chandon. Much more impressive in last act. He really lets go.Problem with Pears is though his artistry is unquestionable, I dislike the tightness in hi voice. An almost nasal quality when the voice is under pressure.

 

[mandryka]

Vickers was a vehement Christian. Perhaps you are right about Britten’s stance.

I'm sure he didn't like gays and lesbians, and somehow I can't imagine him hiding his feelings about that.

I have the Langridge on Chandon. Much more impressive in last act. He really lets go.Problem with Pears is though his artistry is unquestionable, I dislike the tightness in hi voice. An almost nasal quality when the voice is under pressure.

Pears is clearly an acquired taste, but so is Vickers. Over the years I've come to really appreciate Pears for his diction, he really is very good at making the words sound like they mean something which matters. I can forgive the bleating goat voice, but if you can't, at least try the very early recordings (1940s) before just giving up on him -- Schubert, Purcell, Britten, Copland. His voice was less odd -- less odd is still odd, just less so! I can make an upload easily enough if you want.

 

[Del monaco]

I'm sure he didn't like gays and lesbians, and somehow I can't imagine him hiding his feelings about that.



Pears is clearly an acquired taste, but so is Vickers. Over the years I've come to really appreciate Pears for his diction, he really is very good at making the words sound like they mean something which matters. I can forgive the bleating goat voice, but if you can't, at least try the very early recordings (1940s) before just giving up on him -- Schubert, Purcell, Britten, Copland. His voice was less odd -- less odd is still odd, just less so! I can make an upload easily enough if you want.

Pears sings in a beautifully atmospheric recording of Wintereisse but I more admire it for Britten’s pianism.I do quite like the Lute Songs with Bream and I think this suits his voice better. Vickers has an almighty Otello to plead his case as well as Florestan and Tristan. It was an open generous voice with a keen sense of characterisation and acting on par with Gobbi and Callas. I’ll try other recordings and would like to see your upload but I feel I may have to work hard to be convinced.

 

[mandryka]

The one I used to like on that recording with Bream is called "have you seen but a white lily grow."

Vickers recorded Winterreise of course, twice, one of them is pretty good.

The things I appreciate most from Vickers are probably Canio (Pagliacci), Parsifal and maybe Siegmund. But yes, Florestan, Tristan and Otello are amazing too (especially Act 3 of Otello, I still sense a frisson of excitement thinking about when he sings "A terra!... e piangi!")

 

[Tantris]

I have Anthony Rolfe Johnson / Haitink and the original Peter Pears / Britten recordings. I much prefer the Pears / Britten despite it`s age, it seems to have the right presence somehow.

That’s interesting. I know both Britten’s second recording from 1958 (Pears as Grimes, and Claire Watson as Ellen), and Haitink’s 1992 recording with Antony Rolfe-Johnson as Grimes and Felicity Lott as Ellen very well, and have also heard Colin Davis’ famous recording with Jon Vickers as Grimes.

The Britten recording is exceptional, both musically and technically, and I think gives a good insight into how Britten himself interpreted the libretto and the themes of individual against the crowd, isolation, menace and madness. Although I don’t dislike Pears’ voice, ultimately I think he’s too much of an aesthete to be Peter Grimes (as I imagine him). That’s when I turn to Rolfe-Johnson – I think this is much more nuanced, with the sense of a small bucolic community held together by fear of outsiders, and a rounded portrayal of Grimes, as a complex character worthy of both sympathy and distaste, coming across strongly. R-J’s singing of The Great Bear and Pleiades highlights the vulnerability of Grimes in a way that I don’t hear elsewhere. Contrast this with Davis & Vickers, where the sea is dark and menacing, and Grimes is a violent outsider – this is powerful, but also one-dimensional.

 

[mandryka]

Someone said that Tristan calling himself Tantris is a bit like Winston Churchill walking into the German High Command in WW2 and saying "Hello, my name is Townins Hillchurch and I would like to work with you."

I shall listen to Rolfe-Johnson later, initial dipping in makes me a feel a bit negative -- I feel as though I'm listening to an opera singer with a posh English public school accent and not a force of nature. But Haitink sounds good as does Balstrode and the choir.

"Now the great bear" is definitely not a strong point in Britten/Davis IMO, not because of any brutality but because of sentimentality in the last line "who, who, who shall turn the skies back . . . ?" But I prefer it to RJs.

 

[Del monaco]

That’s interesting. I know both Britten’s second recording from 1958 (Pears as Grimes, and Claire Watson as Ellen), and Haitink’s 1992 recording with Antony Rolfe-Johnson as Grimes and Felicity Lott as Ellen very well, and have also heard Colin Davis’ famous recording with Jon Vickers as Grimes.

The Britten recording is exceptional, both musically and technically, and I think gives a good insight into how Britten himself interpreted the libretto and the themes of individual against the crowd, isolation, menace and madness. Although I don’t dislike Pears’ voice, ultimately I think he’s too much of an aesthete to be Peter Grimes (as I imagine him). That’s when I turn to Rolfe-Johnson – I think this is much more nuanced, with the sense of a small bucolic community held together by fear of outsiders, and a rounded portrayal of Grimes, as a complex character worthy of both sympathy and distaste, coming across strongly. R-J’s singing of The Great Bear and Pleiades highlights the vulnerability of Grimes in a way that I don’t hear elsewhere. Contrast this with Davis & Vickers, where the sea is dark and menacing, and Grimes is a violent outsider – this is powerful, but also one-dimensional.

That’s interesting as I feel the opposite. I find RJs much more one dimensional. You would expect the Pears to be sound due to his proximity to the composer and material etc. But his voice is a mismatch I feel. The Vickers is more believable therefore more understandable. Same with Language. If I can’t believe the singer is the character from the start then I can’t really be as involved as I might. Some seem so miscast. Same with Otello. Nobody could ever proclaim that Mario Del Monaco was the most subtle or technical of singers but his Otello has a realness, a sincerity and a heart that so few others attain.

 

[Tantris]

I borrowed the Davis / Vickers Peter Grimes from a friend and listened yesterday. It's not one for me, mainly because I find Vickers is trying too hard to turn each phrase into something of portent - even in Now the Great Bear and Pleiades, relatively early in the drama, some of the phrasing is turned into an angry tone, as if trying to anticipate what happens later. That just doesn't work for me. (His diction also suffers at times).

Anyway, thanks for mentioning Otello. About time I dusted that off. I know only the Myung-Whun Chung / Bastille / Domingo version on DG; is this the Del Monaco version you would recommend?

 

[Del monaco]

It’s best to see Vickers on stage. It makes more sense then. Otello with Karajan and Tebaldi. The conducting and playing is superb.I prefer the Levine Domingo to the later recordings. There’s Toscanini of course and a wonderful left field recording with Giacomini and Price(Baudo). I think Giacomini is a GREAT Otello.

 

[mandryka]

Re Vickers making each phrase « portant », I remember when I first heard his Pagliacci, there’s a phrase he sings in act one « Ed il pubblico applaude » which he gives such profundity to I thought it must be a metaphysical observation. It is not, it just means « the public clap »

Personally I’m much more tolerant of this sort of thing from Vickers than from Fischer Dieskau, who’s the worst. Maybe it’s because Vickers has a better voice (or at least, he doesn’t bark like Fischer Dieskau); maybe it’s because it works better for me in opera than song. Opera is a big, dramatic, camp, kitsch thing; song is subtle, refined, nuanced.

Re Grimes’s anger, he is indeed angry when he sings « Now the great bear . . . « and it’s not only an anticipation of what is to come. He’s angry because he feel that the village doesn’t treat him with enough respect. He’s angry because he hasn’t got enough money. The line (from memory) in his duet with Ellen is « They listen to money, only to money . . . «

He’s also angry because, maybe, he has a not unreasonable premonition that the second boy will die. If I were in his position I’d feel the same and I’d be angry too.

Grimes isn’t a sympathetic character at all if you look closely at what he reveals of himself, he’s a thoroughly nasty piece of work.

 

[Del monaco]

Vickers has a generous voice in the mould of Di Stefano and I feel he has the ability to convey a greater range of emotion than Pears. It’s a very felt performance and he does wring some sympathy from what is a confused and potentially loathsome character, a hulking coarse man who feels every emotion but can only articulate them with anger and violence, much more believable as a character than the Grimes portrayed by Pears and others. IMO.

 

[mandryka]

It’s best to see Vickers on stage. It makes more sense then. Otello with Karajan and Tebaldi. The conducting and playing is superb.I prefer the Levine Domingo to the later recordings. There’s Toscanini of course and a wonderful left field recording with Giacomini and Price(Baudo). I think Giacomini is a GREAT Otello.

I haven't heard Toscanini/Giacomini but I can see it's easily findable, I used to appreciate the one with Ramon Vinay.
I heard Domingo sing it in Milan with Muti. It was strange, it fell flat before the interval but after the break, for Acts 3 and 4, he was coruscating, magnificent. Some time I'd like to explore the recordings.

 

[Tantris]

Peter is indeed angry even at the beginning of the opera, but not because he is ‘a thoroughly nasty piece of work’ or 'a hulking coarse man'. He is angry because the local gossips have slandered his character, believe only their version of events, and will not listen to the truth. These are the themes that are developed from the very beginning, and in the exchange between Balstrode and Peter at the end of the first scene, the truth about the boy’s death comes out;

BALSTRODE
Then the Crowner sits to
Hint, but not to mention crimes,
And publishes an open verdict
Whispered about this "Peter Grimes".
Your boy was workhouse starved -
Maybe you're not to blame he died.

PETER
Picture what that day was like
That evil day.
We strained into the wind
Heavily laden,
We plunged into the wave's
Shuddering challenge
Then the sea rose to a storm
Over the gunwales,
And the boy's silent reproach
Turned to illness.

Peter has the chance of love, peace and perhaps even prosperity with Ellen, but he would only marry her for love, not for pity - there is courage and nobility here;

PETER
We'll sail together.
These Borough gossips
Listen to money
Only to money:
I'll fish the sea dry,
Sell the good catches-
That wealthy merchant
Grimes will set up
Household and shop
You will all see it!
I'll marry Ellen!

BALSTRODE
Man - go and ask her
Without your booty,
She'll have you now.

PETER
No - not for pity!...

BALSTRODE
Then the old tragedy
Is in store:

And as Balstrode’s response indicates, Peter cannot avoid the tragedy that will now unfold; just as in Oedipus, the tragedy pivots on the ambiguity between unavoidable fate (with an obvious hint to Britten’s homosexuality), and character flaws which are influenced by those around Peter (with equally obvious hints of homophobia), as it races towards the inevitable. Now the great Bear and Pleiades is Peter’s realisation that he is trapped, that he cannot make a fresh start, that he will always be an outsider;

Who can turn skies back and begin again?

This is why I think Peter must be sung in a way which brings out this conflict and ambiguity. A reading which emphasises malevolence and anger may well be powerful, but will miss the ambiguity which is the essence of the tragedy, in my view. No wonder Britten did not appreciate Vickers in this role.

 

[Del monaco]

Vinay sang with Toscanini. A serious and memorable performance. The playing is magnificent.Dark and wiry, full of menace and pathos. Domingo grips in the final acts. His live Solti recording shows his mastery, despite the rather insipid Te Kanewa in the Desdemona role.

 

[Del monaco]

Peter is indeed angry even at the beginning of the opera, but not because he is ‘a thoroughly nasty piece of work’. He is angry because the local gossips have slandered his character, believe only their version of events, and will not listen to the truth. These are the themes that are developed from the very beginning, and in the exchange between Balstrode and Peter at the end of the first scene, the truth about the boy’s death comes out;

BALSTRODE
Then the Crowner sits to
Hint, but not to mention crimes,
And publishes an open verdict
Whispered about this "Peter Grimes".
Your boy was workhouse starved -
Maybe you're not to blame he died.

PETER
Picture what that day was like
That evil day.
We strained into the wind
Heavily laden,
We plunged into the wave's
Shuddering challenge
Then the sea rose to a storm
Over the gunwales,
And the boy's silent reproach
Turned to illness.

Peter has the chance of love, peace and perhaps even prosperity with Ellen, but he would only marry her for love, not for pity - there is courage and nobility here;

PETER
We'll sail together.
These Borough gossips
Listen to money
Only to money:
I'll fish the sea dry,
Sell the good catches-
That wealthy merchant
Grimes will set up
Household and shop
You will all see it!
I'll marry Ellen!

BALSTRODE
Man - go and ask her
Without your booty,
She'll have you now.

PETER
No - not for pity!...

BALSTRODE
Then the old tragedy
Is in store:

And as Balstrode’s response indicates, Peter cannot avoid the tragedy that will now unfold; just as in Oedipus, the tragedy pivots on the ambiguity between unavoidable fate (with an obvious hint to Britten’s homosexuality), and character flaws which are influenced by those around Peter (with equally obvious hints of homophobia), as it races towards the inevitable. Now the great Bear and Pleiades is Peter’s realisation that he is trapped, that he cannot make a fresh start, that he will always be an outsider;

Who can turn skies back and begin again?

This is why I think Peter must be sung in a way which brings out this conflict and ambiguity. A reading which emphasises malevolence and anger may well be powerful, but will miss the ambiguity which is the essence of the tragedy, in my view. No wonder Britten did not appreciate Vickers in this role.

Nice analysis.Britten was a controversial figure who must have wrestled many demons(remember Hemings) and he must have felt the judging eyes of others very keenly. I think you perhaps do Vickers a disservice. His performance is much more subtle than that. His success was to humanise the performance. The sheer scale of his voice, his lumbering physique and perhaps his fervent Christian values perhaps guided the views of others about his performance, especially in Britten.