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Pace, rhythm and timing. What do these terms mean to you with respect to hifi?

Robert said:
To give an example, closed box 'speakers with a dry bass alignment and limited low bass are usually perceived as having superior pace and timing.
You likely cannot measure any difference in the speed of sound leaving the speaker but you can measure the effects of the bass alignment and FR.
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That would be why bass reflex loudspeakers have been banned from my home for the last couple of decades.

The Yamaha NS-1000M is PRaT-astic.
 
Tony L said:
FWIW I don’t think the ‘chrome bumper’ stuff was either! My mental image of a Naim system is a Naim amp with a LP12 upstream and Linn (Isobariks, Saras, Kans) or many other speakers (Gale 401s, Mission 770s, Heybrook HB2s or whatever) downstream. That’s a pretty warm and bouncy system in most respects. The lean and forward thing happened later and that’s when I jumped ship. I never got that at all. I never got full Linn systems either.
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A lot of it was confirmation bias.
 
ok I have slightly unusual pairing of Nait XS with mk1 Intros so mix and match of generations.
when finally got the Intros to work (ikea wooden butchers blocks spikes REALLY bedded in to them and as far back to the wall as possible) forward? mids yeas vocal no bass very much separated soundstage is pretty wide, but thats a lot to do with the Rotel 955 that S-Man of this parish tweaked
 
Joe Hutch said:
These days we have a whole new set of audio cliches. Gone are the lifted veils and pools of inky blackness.
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you beat me to it with the first part of what I was going to reply Joe. To me PR&T we’re to one camp what BI&M we’re to the other ie. inky Blackness, holographic Image and liquid Midrange were to the other. Fun though watching the arguments and fierce loyalties on flame wars across those years.

It was an eye opener though discovering you could get amazing sound from turntables such as Nottingham, Michell, SME, Rega, valve amps or good Japanese or American amps and speakers such as Quad, Vandersteen, Martin Logan, Cadence, ad infinitum.

if you’ve heard a gifted pianist or guitarist in your room or spent time at concert halls you realise what a load of c*ck PR&T is when tone, timbre, transient, dynamic range and many other things all play a part and all at the same time. But then hifi has always had a hobbyist and quasi-religious element to allegiances. A bit like pixel peeking and sensor and lens comparison and then a gifted photographer shows you what they can create with any kit choice you might make.
 
I have no idea what it means, but I am told that my Naim system has oodles of it....

That's good enough for me! Innit?

:D:D:D:p:p:p
 
Paul L said:
if you’ve heard a gifted pianist or guitarist in your room or spent time at concert halls you realise what a load of c*ck PR&T is when tone, timbre, transient, dynamic range and many other things all play a part and all at the same time.
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I think you're spot on - PRaT is one (three?) element of reproduction, as are the others you mentioned. I think that some people are just more sensitive to certain parameters of reproduction, and tend to believe and say that what they're most sensitive to (or aware of, if you prefer) is the most important element of musical reproduction. And so it is - for them. But not necessarily for everyone else. I wonder how different the hifi world would be today if people back then had realized that, and not wrapped themselves up in the quasi-religious allegiances you reference. I would like to believe it would be better. But then, I've always had a bit of an idealistic streak, so probably not . . .
 
Loudspeakers can get so many aspects of reproduction wrong. The thing is, we all have our priority of what must be right. I recently had an dealer visit my home and he commented that my NS-1000Ms had the most two-dimensional soundstage he has heard in a while. I have never cared much for sonic holography, but there you go.
 
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Since low frequency reproduction is the most difficult area for speakers to get right, can this term obliquely refer to lack of overhang/group delay/distortion in the speaker's bass response, when paired with a simpathetic amp?

Much of modern music uses sincopation, and for that to sound right, bass has to have very precise time alignment to the higher frequencies.

"Bellow the Bassline" is underappreciated gem from the great Ernest Ranglin. Take a listen to this cut:
 
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EPear said:
A Naim “thing” = slight forwardness in sound, translated into a marketing aura of how a supposedly masterful and tuneful reproduction of the music takes you along. The trade off - not as good a soundstage, transparency and detail level. I think Naim themselves are trying to go more balanced these days, at least in their higher range?
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I would be interesting to see a proper blind test where these claimed Naim properties could be heard.
 
For me Pace, Rhythm and Timing are, if meant as common English, primarily properties of a musical performance. Yet with puzzlement I see the phrase so often used as properties of equipment.

I am not sure how equipment could (or even if it ever should) enhance PR&T. I have seen the comments here about equipment messing these up and maybe that can happen. However take Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven symphonies 5 and 7 from circa 1976. These performances have PR&T in spades. I have heard them through several systems and to me the PR&T remains undimmed.

So to answer the OP's question, I have to conclude that I don't understand what PR&T really means. And (with apologies as this may sound rude to some) perhaps there's another audiophile clique to which I am not admitted.
 
I've always believed that people should buy the hifi they enjoy listening to, and not worry at all about other people's priorities, or imaginary ideas of what hifi 'should' sound like. Which is why I'm slow to blame or praise any piece of equipment, other than on the grounds of build quality and reliability.
 
Nic Robinson said:
I think energy is a good term. It describes for me that ability to resolve dynamic variations. Very important.
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That, also to elaborate, not muddy/bloated. If a system smears the attack and decay of kick drum and bass notes, elements which are critical to the “rhythm and timing” of the music, then it won’t convey those elements of the music properly and it can become boring/fatiguing to listen to. In my experience though, the room has at least, if not most than an equal part in this, put the best system in a room with terrible or just incompatible acoustics and it’s going to sound all kinds of wrong. Actually, as a live sound tech, this is something I regularly have to think about and work around.

Actually, I have a classic “flat earth” system in my living room, an active Kaber system, it just doesn’t work in there, it doesn’t do the things that I associate with PR&T well at all. Instead I’m using a much smaller and simpler system in there (Naim 5 series/Royd) and I much prefer it, which comes back to what I said above about the room playing a big part.
 
Joe Hutch said:
I've always believed that people should buy the hifi they enjoy listening to, and not worry at all about other people's priorities, or imaginary ideas of what hifi 'should' sound like. Which is why I'm slow to blame or praise any piece of equipment, other than on the grounds of build quality and reliability.
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Absolutely!
 
chartz said:
PRaT is a British thing only. It was invented by Linn and Naim and never meant anything to the rest of the world.
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It was certainly exploited by Linn, Naim and similar companies here in the UK to help shift hardware but is there any evidence one of them actually invented the term PRAT with it's associations but absence of meaning. Not saying you are wrong but if you were in the marketing game wouldn't you want people to know about a success like that?
 
h.g. said:
It was certainly exploited by Linn, Naim and similar companies here in the UK to help shift hardware but is there any evidence one of them actually invented the term PRAT with it's associations but absence of meaning. Not saying you are wrong but if you were in the marketing game wouldn't you want people to know about a success like that?
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I've been reading the British hi-fi press for 30 years.
I think the whole British hi-fi world knows. Mission accomplished then.
But elsewhere?
What would PRaT be in French anyway?
 
Pace, rhythm and timing are words that generally describe speed, which are nothing but absolute nonsense when describing the sound coming out your speakers.

Neil Peart isn’t speeding up or slowing down depending on what system you’re playing him through. He’s usually pretty steady.
 
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PRaT is a thing IMO. I've spent 20 years in this hobby and around 10 of those I owned midrange Naim setup. When I first heard Naim gear in my own setup, it was kind of a revelation. Back then I had some Bel Canto shoebox integrated amp and ProAc speakers. I tested my friend's Naim SuperNait in its place and fell in love immediately. It was just pure fun to listen to. Bel Canto sound completely lifeless and boring in comparison. Naim has clear house sound signature, or at least used to have with their classic range. Having great PRaT is about as accurate as you can describe it. Naim doesn't care that much about having deep 3D soundstage or other hifi qualities and this has been audible in pretty much all Naim setups I've ever heard. In 2019 I went active (having owned ATC's from 2014, I just had to try the active route) and haven't regretted a day. Huge leap forward in sound quality. I've used Linn ADSM/3 since then and I must say that occasionally I do miss that Naim house sound, Linn just plays differently. I'd describe Linn little bit more neutral and truthful sounding than Naim gear but it definitely doesn't miss a beat. The presentation is just different and it's difficult to explain, I guess only Naim knows why and how.
 
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