Ouch

[Tony Lockhart]

Not sure I agree. My Audi A2 was revolutionary at the time (1999-2005) and my model, a late 2004, had an uprated (90PS) version of the modern, 1.4 litre 3-cylinder TDI, I got, over a lifetime average, around 50mpg, which included a lot of commuting in traffic, and high speed motorway work. My wife's Seat Ibiza of 5 years later gives very similar mpg from the venerable 1.9 litre, 105PS 4-cylinder TDI, in a car which weighed perhaps 20% more. Move on 5 years and average mpg figures for diesels are hovering nearer to 60 for smaller cars, and 40-45 for even quite large cars. I'd class that as quite significant improvement.

Well, my Bora TDI (130bhp) that I did 100k miles in during four years of ownership gave far better economy than my Merc. I could easily average over 60mpg (genuine, brim to brim) whereas the Merc struggled to clear 50mpg, averaging 46mpg over its lifetime. And that’s a common theme on many forums. No DPF, lighter cars, skinnier tyres. A VW PD engine in a Mk2 Golf would give astonishing economy!

The latest diesel saloons don’t beat the pre-DPF cars, as far as I can tell.

 

[Woodface]

Due to delivery delays back at the start of the pandemic in 2020, my car's delivery date slipped from March to May which coincided with a change in VED rates. This resulted in an additional £760 charge which is just bullshit - they might as well just be honest and call it what it is - an 'envy tax'. First year's VED was £1420, year 2-5 is £520. And don't get me started on councils charging for parking based on emissions; utterly absurd...

VED is a ridiculous mess of a system; it should be abolished and put on fuel, that way vehicles which do higher mileage and/or consume more fuel pay more tax. In the current model, my car will cost £3,500 in VED in the first five years whilst doing an average of 7k miles a year. Someone else in a sub-£40k car would pay less VED even if they were doing 3x the mileage. It just doesn't make any sense. At least with VED on fuel people would be paying for what they actually use (and pollute), it would also be nearly impossible to avoid paying it and you could get rid of an entire (inefficient) department of government that deals with VED. It would also mean that foreign drivers would be contributing toward road-related costs such as wear and tear etc where currently they do not.

The issue of trucks and diesel and delivery costs could be handled through rebates/tax allowances etc in the same way companies don't pay VAT on purchases etc, also any VED for commercial vehicles could be removed too.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the insistence/push for smart meters is so that the gov't/energy companies can spot a car being plugged in to charge and apply a higher rate of tax to the electricity for that period. The gov't make around £7.2bn in VED at present and around £26bn in fuel duty (plus the VAT on the fuel and duty). They're not going to watch that £30bn+ disappear without finding a way to charge electric car owners for it somehow.

There's already talk of trying to find other 'non-exhaust emissions' to hit drivers with such as 'brake dust particulates' and rubber from tyre wear. When you can't tax an EV on emissions they'll darn well find something else.

It seems many won't be happy until we're back in the stone age.

VED doesn’t pay for roads that comes out of general taxation. I don’t really understand this new tax though, car industry needs all the help it can get.

I think in general terms the motorist does very well as pretty much all transport policy is built around them as a group.

 

[Funk]

VED doesn’t pay for roads that comes out of general taxation. I don’t really understand this new tax though, car industry needs all the help it can get.

I think in general terms the motorist does very well as pretty much all transport policy is built around them as a group.

Yeah, I'm aware - same as NI isn't specifically ring-fenced for your pension or NHS treatment.

 

[stevec67]

ANPR is fundamentally and conceptually different. Law enforcement has to request access to fixed ANPR camera data, citing good reason. Nobody else has access. ANPR cameras are located at strategic points on the road network, it's not constant monitoring.

So find a way to charge for road use by ANPR type technology. It works in London, and elsewhere.

Again, access to phone tracking data (mast pings, triangulation, etc) is controlled by strict rules of access under, for example, the Investigatory Powers Act 2016.

No reason why a similar system on a car couldn't be similarly monitored.

The thing that'd be different about road pricing is that every metre of every journey would need to be logged

Not necessarily. Not necessarily at all. The London congestion charge doesn't log every metre. French motorways don't log every metre.

Correct for classic cars but people with collections often have newer cars (such as supercars etc).

Good for them. They can pay to tax them then. This isn't politics of envy, I've had car collections myself. Modest ones, but collections. 3 in fact at one point.

Let's not also forget that buyers will have paid shedloads in VAT on the purchase of their expensive cars too.

Their choice if they want an expensive toy. I paid a shedload of VAT on my hifi, nobody's crying for me, nor should they. It's a first world problem. A car is a necessity to most people. 2 or 3 cars are not. Same goes for 2-3 houses. You want them? Be my guest. But you'll pay your dues.

Oh - we've forgotten to talk about VED 'double-dipping' on a change-over month. Apparently they think it's fair to charge the seller to the end of the month and the buyer from the start of the same month, meaning they get twice the VED revenue for that month. It will have been designed that way as it's clearly possible to design a system that could go down to a daily basis. Complete con.

It may be but this has nothing to do with whether charging to use all or some of the roads is a fairer system than fuel taxation. I have to say that I'm not really interested in who's using the B whatever in Nowheresville-on-nothing at 3 in the afternoon, because it's only going to be local traffic. The M62 at 8 am though, well you can pay for that, just as you pay to go into London.
Another problem with fuel taxation is the disproportionate impact that it has on the poor. It's like the misconception that VAT is a fair tax because it only taxes things you choose to buy. It's not, the poor have to pay a far greater proportion of their income as VAT than the rich.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Not necessarily. Not necessarily at all. The London congestion charge doesn't log every metre. French motorways don't log every metre.

[...]
I have to say that I'm not really interested in who's using the B whatever in Nowheresville-on-nothing at 3 in the afternoon, because it's only going to be local traffic. The M62 at 8 am though, well you can pay for that, just as you pay to go into London.

You're not comparing like with like, though. The congestion charge is for access to a specified zone, so you only need to monitor entry and exit points to the zone. French motorways log entry and exit points similarly, their's is a toll system, like the M6 Toll. But they're functionally anonymous, because the system doesn't really care who you are, it just charges whoever goes past the paybooth.

The thing about road pricing, as an alternative to fuel pricing as a revenue stream, is that for fuel pricing, all usage contributes to the revenue. So a road pricing analogue would need to charge on the basis of distance travelled, hence a need to log all parts of journeys. And if you want a smart system that can vary pricing according to demand, for traffic management, you need to know who is where at what time.

 

[Woodface]

I do think there should be some incentives for single car household, how many really need two cars?

We do have two cars but a bit of cooperation could easily alleviate this. My wife would surely disagree but it seems daft to have two cars sitting mostly idle.

 

[Seeker_UK]

I do think there should be some incentives for single car household...

There are: lower household expenditure on car insurance and VED and in some cases, finance and parking permits.

 

[stevec67]

You're not comparing like with like, though. The congestion charge is for access to a specified zone, so you only need to monitor entry and exit points to the zone. French motorways log entry and exit points similarly, their's is a toll system, like the M6 Toll. But they're functionally anonymous, because the system doesn't really care who you are, it just charges whoever goes past the paybooth.

The thing about road pricing, as an alternative to fuel pricing as a revenue stream, is that for fuel pricing, all usage contributes to the revenue. So a road pricing analogue would need to charge on the basis of distance travelled, hence a need to log all parts of journeys. And if you want a smart system that can vary pricing according to demand, for traffic management, you need to know who is where at what time.

That's the point, not all road usage is created equal. Minoir roads are not an issue. I could devise a system that only logs strategic points, that would still work. So the B2345 leg between Nether Piddle and Pisswetthrough under Upperswamp wasn't billed? Doesn't matter. You can't get there without going down the A whatever, and we clocked you there. Just like the London system, or the Dartford Crossing. There's only one way in and out, we're done. The same could apply to motorways and principal routes. You joined the M1 at junction 10 and left at J25. Do I care about the details? Nope. Here's a bill. It can also be smart. I'll know whether you chose to go on the M1 at 3am or 530pm. The charge rate differs. Again, it does on the Dartford Xing. When I had work in London I used to time my journey to get there just after 10pm on Sunday so it was free. If I was there at 2145 I'd pull into the services and make a phone call, have a drink etc. The systems are already in place if you look.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

That's the point, not all road usage is created equal. Minor roads are not an issue.

That's not the point either, though. It's not the roads themselves, its the revenue generated. You'll notice I argued about an analogue for fuel pricing, where revenue is collected on every metre travelled. You're arguing for something different. Your system can work, but it'll also have a knock on effect of pushing more traffic onto those minor roads. It may be a minor effect, you'd have to do modelling to understand the impact on those roads and the communities they serve, but to blithely state the solution as you have done is as simplistic as blithely dismissing my concerns about mine.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Maybe you could make something work using 5G cells. They're sufficiently small that they'd give you reasonably fine-grained coverage. Maybe a transducer in the car that logs each cell you pass through, and tots them up. That way the cells themselves wouldn't need to collect data on the passing vehicles. Might be easy to, er, foil with a bit of tinfoil round the aerial, though.

 

[davidsrsb]

A fuel tax based system ignores cars being parked on the road and taking up road space even tough they are only run once a week

 

[stevec67]

That's not the point either, though. It's not the roads themselves, its the revenue generated. You'll notice I argued about an analogue for fuel pricing, where revenue is collected on every metre travelled. You're arguing for something different. Your system can work, but it'll also have a knock on effect of pushing more traffic onto those minor roads. It may be a minor effect, you'd have to do modelling to understand the impact on those roads and the communities they serve, but to blithely state the solution as you have done is as simplistic as blithely dismissing my concerns about mine.

I'm not "blithely" doing anything. I'm putting forward an argument. Yes, of course pricing certain roads will push traffic onto alternatives. The Humber bridge toll pushed traffic to the crossing in Goole. Sure, if you want to drive for another hour. Same goes for Dartford, you can hack into town if you want to. Same goes for the "every metre" part, it doesn't, because I could be in something doing 25mpg from a thirsty petrol engine travelling at speed, or I could be maximiling at 35mph in top and getting 50 mpg. With the arrival of electric vehicles, I think road pricing in some form is an inevitability. London already does it, motorways are the obvious next step, major routes thereafter.

 

[venton]

... there's another difference between the workaday brands and the aspirational ones, and that's on the inside. Ford interiors are, for my money, mostly irredeemably awful places to be. VW and Audi are rather better, BMW and Volvo better still. Given that I spend my quality time with my car on the inside, that's a deciding factor for me. It's why I'd never have a Focus, it has nothing to do with brand snobbery* and everything to do with not wanting to drive around inside a 1980s boombox stereo.

*I used to like Fords, and everybody says how great the Focus is to drive, and how economical it can be.

I wish I'd never read this thread now. I live very rurally in a lowish income area and was honestly in blissful ignorance that the focus was so looked down upon. I'm ashamed to go out now

 

[Rockmeister]

I think cars are a bit more symbolic for some than for others, and perceived status is equally of more or less value depending on how you live your life. I value engineering and reliabilty and some performance. Oh and comfort. So i have owned a lot of posh cars but not because they were posh. In fact their poshness has always been a negative for me in case i am judged by anyone for the wheels I own (which, apparently, I will be/am), and anyway because I hate POSH. Port out Starboard home is so f'in eliteist.

 

[Seeker_UK]

I wish I'd never read this thread now. I live very rurally in a lowish income area and was honestly in blissful ignorance that the focus was so looked down upon. I'm ashamed to go out now

The best car you can own is the one that ticks all the boxes important to you and only you.

 

[Rockmeister]

The best car you can own is the one that ticks all the boxes important to you and only you.

hmmmmmmmm? Really?
No thoughts for the environment or the economy?

 

[Seeker_UK]

hmmmmmmmm? Really?
No thoughts for the environment or the economy?

If they're also important to you, yes.

 

[Tony Lockhart]

hmmmmmmmm? Really?
No thoughts for the environment or the economy?

Live, flights over Europe just now



Take the environment seriously, but I’m not going to ruin my life when that lot are up there.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Live, flights over Europe just now



Take the environment seriously, but I’m not going to ruin my life when that lot are up there.

I'll see your flight tracker and raise you one:

 

[Tony Lockhart]

Yep