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Ortofon's MC Anna and 12" arms

Discussion in 'audio' started by Royaloak, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Like duh! FWIW I had similar discussions, e.g, that if you came back threads like this would continue to be trolled-up with endless cyclic, defensive & self-justificational posts, so I was right too! If a poster actively trolls-up a thread where they clearly have neither expertise nor experience of the subject matter they should not be surprised by a little flaming. Especially when the thread is someone else's who actually had a legitimate question that has been lost miles back in all the ego-noise. The annoyance is many here actually had the knowledge and experience to articulate a response. The problem is it ends up being down to me / the mod team to prune this tedious crap out! Thanks for that!
  2. John

    John Fore!

    I read a review somewhere that said that a recent 20 is very close performance wise to a 30. Is there a site that documents all the changes made to the decks over the years?

    Interesting comment from Michael Fremer who is familiar with the SME line, perhaps he is the Guru.

    Though the bigger SME ‘tables are far more expensive, they are thicker and slower sounding than the faster, more nimble-sounding and least expensive in the line 20/3. The larger ‘tables may produce more weight and perhaps greater dynamic slam, but the 20/3 produces better overall rhythm’n’pacing and thus greater overall musical excitement.

    From here:
  3. Jek

    Jek Banned


    Bubs views and way of thinking are probably more representative of the whole audio community than the average person on this forum. Sad but true. He serves a useful purpose to my mind - even a signal must be related to noise to have a meaning. I think the forum would be diminished by a permanent ban. He is more than a mere troll.

  4. Royaloak

    Royaloak pfm Member

    Maybe Bizebub's guru has similar worries about 12" tonearms like me. I knew tonearm resonance looked perfect at 10hz but I have always had my doubts about 12" arms. It's not like I don't have experience, been setting up high end tables for over 25 years, Linn's, Graham, Brinkmann, SME, Roksan etc.... I guess my doubts have calmed down considering I just ordered a V12, my worries were that 12"ers are popular not because of their merits but of the recent obsession over everything retro. Proof will be in the listening when my table arrives in a week or so. I will compare the V12 to my IV and report my findings.
  5. Blzebub

    Blzebub Banned


    Wind back to page 2, and the 12" versus 9" discussion began with paskinn and Mike Reed.

    paskinn's opener on this topic states the longer arm is less dynamic, I restated this in terms described to me by a third party, and then we have 40 pages of yes it is, no it isn't. That's not trolling, I'm actually agreeing with paskinn, and I don't really understand his position.

    The jek and merlin show has been going on for years across at least two forums I can think of. I do not spend my time criticising their choices, but this is not reciprocated.

    It's established no-one here seems to have an Anna. I've said that as far as I know the Anna is a step up from the A90, but then I'm accused of thinking everything I own is the best!
  6. Blzebub

    Blzebub Banned

    I refer you back to the first reply in this thread. Just get the Anna, it will be great.
  7. badger748

    badger748 Like en eel. But in reverse.

    And only 2 (maybe 3) of us own A90's - and neither of us use them on a 12" arm.
  8. Blzebub

    Blzebub Banned

    It's a tiny niche within a small nook, up a narrow cranny.

    We A90 users have to stick together, otherwise, er, something bad may happen.
  9. Blzebub

    Blzebub Banned

    Interesting and worrying! Fremer did also say that the 30 is better than the Rockport, though.
  10. Royaloak

    Royaloak pfm Member

    A few years back had a conversation with Bob Graham, then a discussion not long after over email with Brinkmann. Both were not too enthusiastic about the 12" option. That was what probably put me off and kept me in 9-10.5 range. That was then and this is now, looking forward to my V12's arrival.
  11. Royaloak

    Royaloak pfm Member

    Yeah went to buy one yesterday, no stock, should have before Xmas.
  12. John

    John Fore!

    Found this bit which I suppose answers my question.

    Although the ‘regular’ Model 20/2 has been a best-seller, enough had been learned from the development of the 20/12 and 30/12 to inspire a makeover. The 20/3 differs from the Model 20/2 most visibly through its allblack platter, which also enjoys an increase in thickness, size and weight. Add to that thicker chassis plates, greater overall dimensions. The 20/3 also features the latest version of the external power supply; the bearing’s central damper has been uprated more in line with the Model 30’s, and there’s an improved oil

    From here:;8560/9336

    Anyone have a 20/3?
  13. badger748

    badger748 Like en eel. But in reverse.

    Or consider an XV-1t ??
  14. Covkxw

    Covkxw pfm Member

    You made a fine choice with the V12. Its the only 12"er I'd consider.

    Most other 12" arms do seem to pander to the recent cultishness with long tonearms. I used 12" arms in the past and they gave too many negative aspects with my choice of cartridges. I now use primarily 10" tonearms as well as a 11" that is used with a very low compliance, but not unduly heavy, cartridge.

    It's all about proper matching of arm amd cartridge, really :cool:
  15. Jek

    Jek Banned

    Incorrect - Fremer prefers the rockport to the 30 but says the 30 is better in the bass. He also says the Balance is better than the 30 even in the bass ;)
  16. merlin

    merlin Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.

    The problem with Fremer is that AFAIK, the last time he had a 30 in his system was about ten years ago. I don't think he has ever had a 30/12 in his setup nor a V12.

    To make comparisons with decks that you owned five or ten years previously is a somewhat dangerous pursuit. Aural memory is fickle at the best of times.

    I would take more heed of those who have heard the decks and arms side by side than I would Fremer to be honest.

    Kessler would qualify as that but you have no idea whether he is writing the truth or not, or indeed whether his opinions are relevant to you. He certainly isn't from the pace rhythm and timing school of audiophilia.

    Then there are dealers who may or may not have a vested interest in telling you something that could be distorted at best. Some are reliable - but few, and then it's often only applicable if you share their vision. For instance, Kevin at Definitive is a gentleman, but his preferences are dictated by the colourful systems that he advocates and sells.

    So finally that leaves us with forum people who own or have owned the products. Again, as you don't usually know them from Adam nor know their sonic priorities, it's difficult to place much faith in what they say unless you have become familiar with them over a period of time.

    So that leaves personal comparison and trial. It's the only reliable way to be sure that what you are getting is what you want. You cut out the noise and make your own mind up.

    That's what I tend to do. I get attached to very few pieces of audio as I try so many. I can make my own comparisons and when someone else writes something similar I tend to listen to them.

    So back to the larger 30's. The bottom end on the big SME's is so heavily damped and tight that it's difficult to imagine it sounding heavy or syrupy in any setup. I can imagine people preferring more lively decks and more rhythmical ones certainly, but if that's your bag then I wouldn't be buying a 20/3 - I would be looking at a number of other (and possibly cheaper) options.
  17. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Did either make a 12" arm at that time?
  18. merlin

    merlin Avatar changed - Town names deemed offensive.


    Cynic ;)
  19. Jek

    Jek Banned

    Brinkmann now has a 12.1 inch arm. Rumour has it that its tighter and more dynamic than the 10.5" which is quite something he 10.5 already eclipsed the SME V in these areas (in which it is no slouch)
  20. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Wow k, how do yo know these things,is there a secret cabal of protoype tonearm testers,of which you are party.

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