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Ortofon 2m Bronze vs Nagaoka MP 500

rough edges

rough edges

Sapere Aude
Has anyone compared these 2 cartridges, and if so, how do they compare? I like the 2M Bronze a lot, but I’ve read many good things about the Nagaoka. Now I have the itch.
System is LP12/cirkus/Lingo2/Ittok/Graham Slee Reflex M/52/250/JBL4429.
Can’t really fault the Ortofon, but if the Nagaoka is in a different league, well you folks know how it goes...
Thanks,
Brian
 
I’ve spent a lot of time with the 2M Black and MP-500 and would conclude they have sufficiently differing phono stage requirements that it will all depend of system context. Both are clearly very good, but for me with my JC Verdier preamp/phono stage the Nag was a far better match, the Ortofon being way too bright and just highlighting hi-hats, surface noise etc too much (it needs exceptionally low capacitance). The Nagaoka seems far, far less sensitive to loading/capacitance for some reason, maybe the difference between MM and MI.

PS Regardless of loading I’d be surprised if you didn’t find the Nagaoka rather warmer, weightier and smoother, though maybe less dynamic. It is very noticeably lower output level too (about 3mV vs. 5mV IIRC).
 
Tony L said:
I’ve spent a lot of time with the 2M Black and MP-500 and would conclude they have sufficiently differing phono stage requirements that it will all depend of system context. Both are clearly very good, but for me with my JC Verdier preamp/phono stage the Nag was a far better match, the Ortofon being way too bright and just highlighting hi-hats, surface noise etc too much (it needs exceptionally low capacitance). The Nagaoka seems far, far less sensitive to loading/capacitance for some reason, maybe the difference between MM and MI.

PS Regardless of loading I’d be surprised if you didn’t find the Nagaoka rather warmer, weightier and smoother, though maybe less dynamic. It is very noticeably lower output level too (about 3mV vs. 5mV IIRC).
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I've read comments online that say the 2M Black seems to emphasize surface noise in some setups. Others have said that the Black is very detailed, but can also be bright. Fremer says it's the best MM on the planet, but he could just be a bit of a detail retrieval freak. I'm not.
On the other hand, I don't find the 2M Bronze emphasizes surface noise at all, but that may be due in part to the phono stage I'm using. In fact, the Bronze rides very quietly in the grooves, and tracks very well at 1.7 gm. I do find it to be a bit "hot" with it's 5mv output level; I rarely go above 9 o'clock on my 52. My 4429s are 91db.
My Graham Slee Reflex M phono amp has a fixed input loading of 47Kohm and 100pf. My gut feeling is that the 2M Black may be a move in the wrong direction.
The Nagaoka may be a much better choice for me, with a warmer and smoother sound. How difficult is it to align? Is it a good match for an Ittok?
Thanks,
Brian
 
My post needs to be read as what it is, a personal impression of the Black vs. the Nag. I’ve also read similar about the difference between the Black and Bronze, and suspect I’d prefer the latter. FWIW I prefer the preceding Geiger tipped 540/II to the Black as it is a little warmer and less analytical. I also really do not like a tipped-up ‘detail’ presentation and frequently find myself walking around hi-fi shows or dealers dem rooms wondering how the hell anyone can enjoy many systems as they are so bright and focus so much on drum kit metal-work, fret-buzz, vocal sibilance etc. I’m certainly not suggesting the Black has to sound like that, but it is a step too far in that direction in my system.
 
I completely agree without Tony. I had both and his points all line up with mine.

The MP-500 is sweet! Bloody expensive, mind.
 
Also consider the Hana SL, its very much the oresentation of the Nagaoka but with a more 'airy' feel, sounds more alive but still organic and fluid. I changed from the MP500 to the SL and havent gone back.
 
The Chronicals said:
Also consider the Hana SL, its very much the oresentation of the Nagaoka but with a more 'airy' feel, sounds more alive but still organic and fluid. I changed from the MP500 to the SL and havent gone back.
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The Hana SL is a low output MC, if you wanted it to work into an MM stage, you’d want the SH.
 
Well I stuck with the 2M Black over the Nagoka MP500, I found the Nagoka was just dull and boring. The 2M black is remarkable IMO - but my phonostage can set its capacitance down to 47 pf so maybe that helps.

I also have a 2M Bronze stylus assembly which I can swap into the 2M black body (I'm pretty sure the Bronze use the same body and generator) and it just slightly rolled off and less separation between musical strands than the black. The Black is superior.

However, if balls-out rock is your thing..... save your money and just get the 2M Red - its utter joy with hard rock.
 
Blue to Bronze here. They're both a little bright and keen to detail (LFD stage). The bronze smoothed that out but it would still make me wince on bright source material with horns or hot cymbal mixes. My table doesn't befit more expensive cartridges so I'm trying an OM30 due to its lower output. It say it's more listenable to my ears than the bronze.
 
alanbeeb said:
Well I stuck with the 2M Black over the Nagoka MP500, I found the Nagoka was just dull and boring. The 2M black is remarkable IMO - but my phonostage can set its capacitance down to 47 pf so maybe that helps.

I also have a 2M Bronze stylus assembly which I can swap into the 2M black body (I'm pretty sure the Bronze use the same body and generator) and it just slightly rolled off and less separation between musical strands than the black. The Black is superior.

However, if balls-out rock is your thing..... save your money and just get the 2M Red - its utter joy with hard rock.
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I bought your Nag Alan, thanks! It was indeed a bit dull at first but it really came to life after 30 hours or so. I think that's it for me, I'll just buy new styluses from here on in - I just can't imagine getting a better sound without spending a lot more: rich, detailed, distortion free - lovely.
 
I liked mine from the off, but yes, it does certainly wake up after a while. I think I’m done too - it seems a decent match with both my vintage SME arm and the JC Verdier phono stage. I can’t imagine doing anything but replace the stylus when it wears out. I’m actually half tempted to just buy a spare one with PayPal $ from Japan at some point rather than converting it to £ (some pfm income is paid in USD). By saying that a stylus takes me an age to get through these days as I play so many more CDs due to them being in such abundance at present.
 
The Chronicals said:
2M Bronze - Bright, clinical, souless

MP500 - Earthy , wooden, beautiful
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well maybe in your system. Roksan Xerxes with Van den Hul cable/RB300 into Musical Fidelity XLPs v3 into Audiolab 8200cdq is fine, similar sound to the cd equivalent. Not bright and very little surface noise if any.
 
Seanm said:
I bought your Nag Alan, thanks! It was indeed a bit dull at first but it really came to life after 30 hours or so. I think that's it for me, I'll just buy new styluses from here on in - I just can't imagine getting a better sound without spending a lot more: rich, detailed, distortion free - lovely.
Click to expand...

Nagaoka's take ages to bed in, but they don't last long. I think Nagaoka themselves denote a crazily low number for hours till replacement. I had to replace mine twice over the years, and it wasnt after much use, you eventually get to the point where it starts sounding congested, with a 'lisp' on the vocals - thats the sign you need to change the stylus.

It's still worth it in comparison to an Ortofon, a Nagaoka sounds like vinyl should, an Ortofon sounds like a CD.
 
The Chronicals said:
Nagaoka's take ages to bed in, but they don't last long. I think Nagaoka themselves denote a crazily low number for hours till replacement. I had to replace mine twice over the years, and it wasnt after much use, you eventually get to the point where it starts sounding congested, with a 'lisp' on the vocals - thats the sign you need to change the stylus.

It's still worth it in comparison to an Ortofon, a Nagaoka sounds like vinyl should, an Ortofon sounds like a CD.
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Have been using my MP30 for a while now..

No problem with cart life

Contemplating buying the JN P 50 needle
 
If that was actually the case they would not be in business! Also bare in mind that Nagaoka make styli and cantilever assemblies for many other manufacturers (the vast majority of high-end brands buy-in tips/assemblies, and Nagaoka are as I understand it one of the major Japanese suppliers). I’d love to see a list of who they supply, but my bet is most will claim a normal 1000-2000 hour lifespan.
 
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