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Oops - Thorens TD 124

Got it home - I walk into the guys workshop and the first thing I see is a 1940s MG soft-top in mid-restoration, workshop spotlessly clean. He had a workbench dedicated to hi-fi, heaps of early Quad gear (tuners, preamps and an official Quad stereo decoder...didn't even know they did one!). Workshop system: JBL speakers driven by a 303 and a 34 pre & matching tuner.

My kind of guy, I guess 10 or 15 years older than me (I'm 49), purchasing all the stuff he desired but could not afford when he was a youth. His main system in the house is also an early TD-124, with a 12" SME arm...and there's Quad IIs there too that he has rebuilt...I regret not asking him more (I guess he had Tannoy, JBL or ESL speakers too), or asking to see his main system. But a snow storm was threatening (I got home 10 mins before 5cm was dumped very quickly).

Anyhow - he demonstrates it working for me. All good at initial inspection. I remove outer platter, then try lifting out platter with spindle - it doesnt want to come due to suction. He says better to remove 3 screws and so does so.

Pass over a wad of cash, load it safely into car and drive home.

I created a Flickr album here; https://flic.kr/s/aHsktGR8V1

Re-assembled for first test drive;
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Points to note, comments welcome;
- What is all the rubbish I have heard about centering the platter accurately if removing the 3 screws to remove platter? On the early green iron ones at least, there is only one position it fits, which is micro millimeter perfect with zero slop, and allows you to refit screws.
- It has metal bearings - looking at it, I don't think the seller replaced them (but I did not ask - will do via email later), I thenk I can see where he has cleaned both spindle and bearing surfaces. Certainly he got rid of all old oil, it's spotlessly clean inside.
- What is all the fuss about mechanical noise from these things? (;)) I have it mounted on its threaded rods onto a stressed plywood table (a soundbox that will amplify mechanical noise, basically). This thing is next to silent - seriously, at 33 and 45 I do not hear more than the noise of the belt, a quiet whirr. At 78 there is a tiny bit of mechanical noise, and also a very small amount at 16.

I need to bodge together an armboard and see what this thing can do - very happy so far.

Cheers, Richard
 
Looks good. The bearing has either been fitted with bronze bushings or replaced, which is excellent news, either that or Schopper's serial number data is incorrect. It certainly has bronze bushings! It also looks like you have an original issue Thorens belt, guard it with your life, it is likely the only quiet belt you will ever find for the thing!

The platter is almost an interference fit, but not quite, there is a tiny bit of play. The alloy one has tons of play, you can get that one a mm or two out of whack! It is obviously very important as the idler track is impacted resulting in wow. Any error is amplified too, e.g. half a mm off-centre would result in an idler tracking error of 1mm as it will be moving in and out of true, lots of wobbly piano notes!
 
Thanks - still quiet after 1.5 hours running. Speed increased a little, motor has got hot (I can still hold my fingers on it), adjustment sees it stable again.

Touching motor I feel vibration, but touching chassis not - grommets seem to be doing their job.

There is no play on my platter - it was a two man job to get it off, with me holding spindle down while he lifted platter - I spot no eccentricity via naked eye, but will try again with outer platter removed before playing anything.

Very interested to see how it sounds now - just need an arm board and I will whack the rb250 on it for a first try. Watching a few arm boards and plinths :)
 
I thought you ran an EMT Patrick? I guess you do not like the Thorens?

Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, I expected excessive noise coupled via metal rods onto a stressed thin material wooden table - there's no mechanical noise break through, just the whir of the belt. For me much better than I expected :)
 
Looks phantastic Richard !

Haven't got 1 deck that's even close to this beautiful, for sure..

And mechanically looks quite re-assuring to me, too.

Dropped you a pm gdg armboard.

Cheers,

T
 
Dowser said:
I thought you ran an EMT Patrick? I guess you do not like the Thorens?
Click to expand...

I have a grease bearing Garrard 301, a Thorens 124 Mk2 and an EMT927, plus some other decks in parts.

The 301 is the deck I use most of the time but I like the 124 too. I don't use the 927 that much as it doesn't have a Decca fitted and it's really setup for mono.

As you say, the 124s always seem to have some mechanical noise but it doesn't seem to transmit to the parts that matter. It's an odd design, sophisticated in some ways but rather crudely made in others, but it's nice and compact, good looking and enjoyable to listen too. Mine now has a Mission 774 with a Decca C4e. It isn't quite as 'front row' as the 301.
 
Patrick, have you used a Decca with a 124 with the iron platter? If so how much tracking force compensation did you need? IIRC Deccas have a large magnet pretty low to the record surface. I've always had an inkling to try a Decca and I'm curious if it is sensible on the 124.
 
One option with mine, if it topples the LP12, would be to fit a longer wand on my 774 - is your 774 standard length Patrick?

The seller just called me in error - I asked him about the main bearing - he confirmed it was sintered bronze when he got it, and that his main 124 is an earlier serial number and had the plastic bearing initially which he swapped himself. So by serial 73xx it seems they swapped bearings...or it was done earlier in its life.

Richard
 
I don't have an iron platter.

My 774 is standard. I need to sort out a new armboard with some version of a correct geometry and rewire the 774. It's on my list.
 
Being hacked off with the digital side of things currently (see my CDI thread in DIY :)), decided to drag this out again - I've since got cheap armboard and plinth to let me test it and see whether it's worth progressing further;

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Question - the metal adjustment wheels, they're a metal to wood contact currently - is it worth me putting some sort of rubber between the two? Anyone played?

The Rega will only be a temporary fit - I know it of old from my LP12. I also have a Linn Basik I could fit, plus the AS-212 on the Lenco and Mission 774 on the Linn. If it all works out, 774 will go on the Thorens.

Richard
 
Another question - I'm going to connect the chassis to mains earth, and the tonearm separately to the head-amp - is OK?

Rudimentary tonearm alignment :) I'm going for 220mm and a slightly oversize hole to give wriggle room. I use Baerwald, interested to see how much twist such a small difference makes.

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Richard
 
Wow - for over 4 years this deck has sat on a shelf in my bedroom with a cloth over it to protect from dust. I'm having a big clear out, so time to do something with it. Since above posts I sold the RB-250 on a PL-51, and have bought a Systemdeck III with Hadcock GH-228 and a Sony PS-X60 with a PUA-7.

So I have 3 potential arms to go on the 124;
- Ortofon AS-212
- Hadcock GH-228
- Sony PUA-7

What do you think will perform best? For me, the PUA-7 would be a good visual match and I'm tempted to try that first. I suspect the Hadcock may provide better sound quality? Anyone with experience of one of more of these arms?

Just for the visuals, think I have to try the Sony arm first - that means I am going to do a very bad thing; steal the PUA-7 off the PS-X60, and mount the original Pioneer PL-51A arm (a PoS!) on it instead (assuming I can account for the 15mm different spindle to pivot difference), and then sell the PS-X60 for whatever I can get :) Worst case, if the PUA-7 doesn't work out, I keep it as a piece of jewelry, it really is beautiful! Original thread with photos here.

Let me know your thoughts on these arms please, thanks.

Richard
 
I took the pua-7 off the PS-x60 - no easy way to remount a different arm (top plate of PS-x60 is Metal), for my sins I’m selling it as is without arm...along with the Pioneer arm at same time :)
 
I'd put the Hadcock 228 on the TD124.
And I'd certainly leave that PUA-7 on the Sony..not in a pathetic moral 'that's not allowed' way, but simply to my eyes I'm getting mental hickups looking at it.
I'd leave the 774 on the LP12 for sure.

Like with music I do not quite understand in the first take, I just try again for a longer while and mostly, if it's really good but complex, I start getting my foot into the door after a while.

So my suggestion would be to try the Hadcock on the TD124 first & have it run like that for a month or 2.
After that, put on the Sony arm for a trial..but I'd bet you'd get some kind of eyeball pain then.

Also I wouldn't be too astonished if you'd make some astonishing experience regarding the sonic result
GH-228 vs PUA-7.

After the Hadcock, my choice would certainly have been the 212 and perhaps even the Rega arm.

I'd certainly leave that PUA7 on the X60, keep them together & possibly sell them as a unit to recover some $ potential for your project.

How does that Systemdeck III sound against the LP12 by the way ?
I'm currently on a drift away from rubber belt drive, and I'm reading my own ~ 5 year old comments in the beginning of your thread with rised eyebrows now..

From your list, I'd probably keep the LP12 because there's so much effort in it and as a stable and known reference point, the TD124 and the Lenco.
From vfm and the range you can bring it to vs what it costs, the Lenco is the most amazing,
the TD124 the most beautiful..in fact the most estetic deck of all in total in my book.
Not aiming to indicate the 124 isn't up to a Lenco, but just the L75 has a fair headstart in price,
a well done and finished TD124 is a great deck, also sonically.

I've just crashed into my first serious DD restore & am building up my second Lenco simultaneously.
My first Lenco still has it's original top-plate & is doing very well..the second will be a more all-in approach.
Will be interesting to hear this and the DD head to head.

Whatever you do..have fun and keep up the updates and your very nice pictures,
I enjoy reading and looking a lot ! :)
 
Am I the only one who thinks the PUA-7 looks fantastic? :)

I paid equivalent of £115 for the PS-X60, deck without arm is already on a local auction site, I’ll take what I can get for it.

The Sony arm will go onto the 124 first I’m fairly sure, even though I suspect the Hadcock will give better SQ. I have a couple of armboards so plain one can be for trial.

Systemdeck III with Hadcock sounded good once azimuth set, but cartridge was pretty poor (Blue Point I think) and I wasn’t that impressed - the Sony with a basic MM Sony cart was much better (not Resolution, but boogie).

LP12 and 774 is my reference. All my Lenco L75s are gone now. My 3 main decks now are LP12, Lenco L70 (stunning mint condition, with lid - I cannot bring myself to swap the arm!) and the TD-124...the only one I’ve never listened to :)

Richard
 
I'm not saying the PUA-7 looks bad, it looks quite good in fact,
but the exceptionally beautiful form language of the TD124 reminds me of
a car like say the Volvo Amazon.
The Sony is more a classic with a by then futuristic styling,
so maybe the equivalent to a Rover Vitesse.
I like both cars a lot, but I wouldn't put a Vitesse spoiler on a Volvo Amazon.
That's a bit exaggerated, but maybe you get my spin..

On the L75 I'd have far less headaches, as they are not near as rare and the top plate isn't
of such stunning beauty.
So I have much less issues getting rid of the top plate, arm and possibly turn it into
something that's completely form-follows-function w/o or very little design goals
& perhaps even pretty much any modern arm .

Sorry your L75 are all gone now..I think they really have great potential and something about them.
Would have been interesting to see how TD124 vs L75 compare, once finished.
I think or hope I'll get my L75 past the LP12, but it's not sure yet...anyway I'm curious how it works out.

My 3 main decks will be: LP12, L75 and SL-150.
The SL will be best in speed stability with ease, the final word will be how good it is in terms of resonance compared to the other two.

Anyway...keep up the good pictures & try the PUA-7..perhaps it doesn't look half as bad as I thought ?
Still think a Hadcock would look ace on the TD tho, perhaps on a light grey armboard?
One colour tone down from the creamy plinth & blending into the black/chrome mix of the 228.

I'm curious for first sonic results whichever arm you choose.
What cart will you use ? I'm tempted to try a DL110 in both the L75 & the SL
as I ran into a nice perfectly fitting Denon phonostage that had a class A integrated piggybacked with it..
 
Well, I’m going to strip the hadcock off the Systemdek III too, and sell the deck separately - Systemdek is boxed so should be an easy sale (hope so, I paid 200.- for it and hadcock).

@highcut28 - my journey is slow, had the 124 for 4 years without hearing it yet (except its remarkable lack of noise!).

cartridges on whatever arm will be Asaka, Dynavector Ruby, Benz Micro or DL103 I guess/hope.
 
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